In need of a mentor.

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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby whynotme » Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:30 am

echograph wrote:I dont think anyone is trying to make me feel sad on purpose.
And im fully aware that human has made this world a battlefield.

All I want is this one simple answer: What is Karma? The police force of the universe? revenge squad? peace keeper? Whatever Karma is, it sound extremely irrational to punish a soul for what it has done in its past life, without the soul knowing what it did that was so terrible. I would accept that if there was a lesson to be learned.

This is like sedating a criminal with Rohypnol so he wont remember what he did, then when sober, imprison him without an explanation. Just tell him that you have committed a crime that you have no recollection of and we wont tell you what the crime was, but now here is your punishment. and by the way, when you are being punished, we are going to give you some more Rohypnol so you wont remember the punishment either. in this case, replace Rohypnol with reincarnation.

Sorry but what you are describing is highly irrational. If you truly believe in that, you are living in hell. a Rohypnol induced hell. :shrug:

So how do you want the world to operate? You want it to be operated as there is no criminal, no sorrow, no anxiety? But no matter what you want or how much do you want, the world still operate in its own way, accept it or not, it is your choice. If you don't want to believe in kamma, it is your right, and it is normal.

But I tell you this, if you think your experience is still so terrible after many years, do you ever experience physical pain? Arm broken, bone broken, many people die in war. I know that every pain has it own kind, but if you now are experiencing a physical pain like your bones were broken, believe me, all your memory about your childhood will go away because you will scream like hell because of the pain. It is may hard to explain something for someone who not experience the same problem, so you may not feel terrible for the one who now experience physical pain.

Men die in war, in traffic accidents, by diseases hospital.. a short sentences is enough to describe the event but do you how much pain they must bear before they even can die? One hour in a serious pain may long like a year, and some people have it for years in real time, yes, that normal fact happens everyday everywhere. People with serious power and money cant hide from them either and if pain happens to a person, I think it will make them kneed and give everything for the cure.

Is it fair for them? You can find and go to meet someone in serious pain and see how they react, feel their pain, it may help you ease your own pain, have compassion for others and live a better life. And to see the bright side, you are not like them yet.

And lastly, do your family or friend know about it? Family and relatives help a lot, you can seek their help in parallel to the outside world. You need someone understand you, people that you can trust, protect you, make you feel safe, it will help you. Going alone is hard.

Regards.
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby Alobha » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:10 pm

echograph wrote:All I want is this one simple answer: What is Karma? The police force of the universe? revenge squad? peace keeper? Whatever Karma is, it sound extremely irrational to punish a soul for what it has done in its past life, without the soul knowing what it did that was so terrible. I would accept that if there was a lesson to be learned.


Hi echograph,

If you want the short version, here you go:
"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect."
— AN 6.63

for a better understanding of khamma, check this out:

Dhammawiki: http://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Kamma
Nyanaponika Mahathera: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... fruit.html
In the Buddhas own words: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... kamma.html
Thanissaro Bhikkhu: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... karma.html

echograph wrote:This is like sedating a criminal with Rohypnol so he wont remember what he did, then when sober, imprison him without an explanation. Just tell him that you have committed a crime that you have no recollection of and we wont tell you what the crime was, but now here is your punishment. and by the way, when you are being punished, we are going to give you some more Rohypnol so you wont remember the punishment either. in this case, replace Rohypnol with reincarnation.

Sorry but what you are describing is highly irrational. If you truly believe in that, you are living in hell. a Rohypnol induced hell. :shrug:


Khamma is not a person, nor an intelligent being or anything like that. the law of khamma is like the law of physics in this matter: It does not work to punish or to reward, it has no moral intention in the way it works. It's just a mechanism. Another example: You can think a red traffic light is evil and unjust and a green traffic light is good and just, but the traffic light is really neither of it. The traffic light just does its thing. It does not want anything, it has no intention to bully or to be kind to you.
But unlike the traffic light, it's up to you what you get out of it. Do good and there will be good consequences. Do bad, and there will be bad consequences.

The law of Khamma is not something to believe in, but something to see for yourself.

echograph wrote:but my views changed, i realized that hate only hurts me.

This is the law of khamma right there. If you see for yourself, thoughts imbued with hatred and anger don't lead you to happiness, but to irritation and even more anger and hatred, that thoughts, speech and actions with hatred as their intention harm yourself, that's where you see how your actions lead to consequences! Well done, see it for yourself from your own experience!

echograph wrote:the problem is the effects the abuse had on my subconscious, it ruined my youth, it prevented good memories to be made, it made me an anxious, and depressed person living a love-less life with no hope in humanity. now, if you say Karma says I had it coming, and i did something to deserve it. maybe im looking in the wrong place for help. because the Karma you just described sounds irrational and illogical. inhumane and blindly mean. How is that supposed to help?

Put the question why something in the past happened to you on the sideburner for now. Khamma is not the only explanation (see Dhammawiki link) for why things might have happened to you in the past. The law of khamma shows that you are in charge of your decisions, you are in charge of your decisions and there will be consequences for your decisions, you and only you are responsible for every decision you make in your life. This can turn your life for better of for worse. It's up to you.

The past is the past. You can't change it. What happened, has happened. What you do now is up to you. You can think about the past again and again, linger on how bad you have been treated again and again, think of yourself as a victim again and again. The consequences of this? Everytime you bring those memories and thoughts back from the past, turn them alive in your mind again and relate to them in an unskillful manner, you may feel hurt again and again, feel sad again and again, feel as a powerless victim again and again. You can feel that, can't you? If you think about what you have lost or what you could have had, if you think about alternative realities that are not real and move you away from the present, is that helping you to find peace with the present? Or do you just get away from it this way?

You can move on from these things. You are in charge of whether you live in happiness in the present and the future or not. It is your actions, not the actions of some mad person who did something to you x years ago, that can lead you to happiness or to misery.

Now tell me, what is karma is going to do to you for making me feel this way and obviously misrepresenting it. I guess you have to wait till the next life to be punished, and you will never know why you are being punished.

This is quite another fine example for actions and the results of actions. If you have the perception "Others are responsible for my feelings, others are responsible for my misery, others are responsible for how i feel, i'm not responsible for it." then what is the obvious consequence? will there be the perception that you can change your life for the better, or will you continue in your life feeling like a victim to everyone around you? If you make others responsible for how you feel, will you bear resentment towards them or not?

This was the ONLY time i asked for help and I was made to be the bad guy.

"I was made to be..." "for making me feel this way"... these are quite striking formulations for these kinds of perceptions. People made you misunderstand, it's all their fault! Let's get and punish them! ;) ...Put things into perspectives. It's not the case that khamma explains everything that happens to you, but your inner world (and a good part of your outer environment, too!) is indeed shaped by your own behavior in speech, act and mind. No matter where you stand, the Buddha shows that it's by your actions that you can find happiness. It's not predetermined, it's not determined by others and it's not random. You are in charge of your own happiness.
This is the beautiful thing about the teachings of the Buddha. You don't have to put blind faith in a god or put all responsibilty in some supreme being. You are not told that you should do this or that. The teachings just shows what, if done, will lead to wholesome states of mind and will be beneficial to you and what, if done, will lead to unwholesome states of mind and will be unbeneficial to you. The teachings invite us to see and experience the truth for ourself, to see from our own experience how things really are.

If you feel offended by the idea, that you are in charge of your happiness, that it's up to you how you feel and relate to the world, this is just understandable. Accepting this also comes with accepting that if you act in a bad way, you are responsible for the bad consequences, which one may not like if one prefers to blame others for bad stuff. Either way, I wish you all the best and i hope that you will find a way out of this thicket of anger and sadness.

Best wishes,
Alobha
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby Caraka » Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:12 pm

Do good and there will be good consequences. Do bad, and there will be bad consequences.


Is this not a bit oversimplifying?

For anyone who have, or still experience hell from events that caused mentally or physical traumas upon oneself should, in my opinion, only be met with conditions that they benefit from. Explaining to non-buddhist (or ignorants) that this is oneself wrongdoing (Khamma), is not benefiting anyone - at all. How can anyone who not understand Dukkha, understand Khamma? I for sure do not understand this approach.

One thing everyone does understand is the unchangeable past, and this make people able to understand that feelings related to the past are not helpful to oneself, now or in the future. But how can such a person feel better after this little insight? Feelings just does not fade away just because oneself know they do not help in the current moment.


- Off topic or not.... :tongue:
Last edited by Caraka on Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby Alobha » Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:18 pm

Caraka wrote:
Do good and there will be good consequences. Do bad, and there will be bad consequences.


Is this not a bit oversimplifying?


Maybe a bit but you get the idea -->
AN 5.57 wrote:"'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby waimengwan » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:28 pm

The laws of karma are no different from the laws of Gravity.

Gravity does not care if you are young, old, pregnant , happy, mother, king, pauper you will be subject to its law.

If we know how karma operates, we can't change the past but we can change the future. If we want happiness in ourselves, we must give happiness to others. The effect will be similar to the cause. if we do not think we are the victim that is very empowering to help us heal and get out from our pity party. We take responsibility for what has happened to us, and that we have harmed others in the past. For me it is much much better than blaming the people how have harmed you.

I also like Ajahn Brahm once said our lives is like a brickwall of 100. Probably out of that 100 one or two is not nicely arranged. Is there a reason to tear down the wall?

Also in life we have 10 things if importance to us, 8-9 are ok, 1 -2 may not be good, but we choose to focus on the 1-2 and not the 8-9 things.
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby echograph » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:24 pm

waimengwan wrote:Also in life we have 10 things if importance to us, 8-9 are ok, 1 -2 may not be good, but we choose to focus on the 1-2 and not the 8-9 things.



Thats true. When something bad happens to us, we always say "why me?" but fortunate events dont come to us as a surprise as much as unfortunate ones. for example when we win something we never ask "why me?"
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby waimengwan » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:23 pm

Yes I learnt this from Ajahn Brahm. Very profound advice.
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby echograph » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:07 am

waimengwan wrote:Yes I learnt this from Ajahn Brahm. Very profound advice.



I have recently started leaning a lot from Ajahn Brahm. He explained Karma better than I expected. I enjoy his use of humor and simple examples
to explain complex subjects. I cant explain the level of peace I feel, just by hearing his voice. :clap:
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby Caraka » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:42 pm

Thank you for guiding me towards Ajahn Brahm.
:namaste:
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby echograph » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:35 pm

Caraka wrote:Thank you for guiding me towards Ajahn Brahm.
:namaste:


That's exactly how I feel. And I owe it to LonesomeYogurt. He/she noticed how Karma is sometimes misrepresented, and guided me towards him.
I can easily say his words are the best thing that happened to me in my search for inner peace. I understand its not easy, and no one said it would be. I have been working hard to forgive the ones who hurt me and try to kill anger. Since I tried to forgive, my anger extinguished and I feel a little better everyday. :bow:
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby waimengwan » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:44 pm

Ajahn Brahm always uses the simile of the brick wall. Very insightful and practical as well.

He is from the HAHAYANA tradition.
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby echograph » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:56 pm

waimengwan wrote:Ajahn Brahm always uses the simile of the brick wall. Very insightful and practical as well.

He is from the HAHAYANA tradition.


Oh, the 980 perfect bricks! Its almost silly how we manage to see the 2 that are imperfect. And how little it takes for someone to realize his biggest mistake in life. As he points out, its easy to be a s#!t collector in life! :tongue:
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:51 pm

hi Echograph
Have you had any luck finding a teacher near you, you can meet with?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby echograph » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:04 am

unfortunately no. I even went to the temple in Phoenix and there was no service till next month and it was closed. But ive been learning as much as i can on the internet from different sources. everyone has been so helpful here. Ive been blessed with all kinds of advice and links etc. Thank you! :bow:
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:43 am

Hi
maybe this would help?
http://phoenixbuddhists.org/
I am assuming you are in Arizona and although there are a great many tibetan & Zen groups in the list there are Vipassana & Theravadin groups there also.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby drifting cloud » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:55 pm

waimengwan wrote:Drifting Cloud - Then are you saying things can happen to me not due to karma ?


Yes. Karma is intentional action and the fruits of intentional action. Many things can befall us that have nothing to do with karma. The Buddha specifically says that to attribute all experiences to previous karma in previous lives is a false doctrine:

Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that ‘whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous kamma,’ then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans. Sivaka Sutta, SN 36.21

Thus even if your guru was correct about the ultimate karmic causes of his own situation (something which only he would know), you have no business telling other victims of sexual abuse that their abuse was really "their own fault". To do so strikes me as enormously unskillful for the reasons I enumerated in my previous post. And given that the Buddha himself specifically dismissed this conception of karma, I think we can regard it as un-Buddhist.

My understanding is that Buddhism actually recognizes a variety of casual factors:

utuniyama - environmental causes
bhijaniyama - inherited causes (what we would call "genetics" today)
cittaniyama - non-intentional psychological causes
kammaniyama - karmic causes
dhammaniyama - natural causes (a catch all for anything not falling in the four above mentioned causes)

Ecograph, I am glad you finding some peace from Buddhist teachings. Practice well!
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby waimengwan » Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:45 pm

Thus even if your guru was correct about the ultimate karmic causes of his own situation (something which only he would know), you have no business telling other victims of sexual abuse that their abuse was really "their own fault".

I agree to disagree. Sounds corny but the truth does set us free.

utuniyama - environmental causes
bhijaniyama - inherited causes (what we would call "genetics" today)
cittaniyama - non-intentional psychological causes
dhammaniyama - natural causes (a catch all for anything not falling in the four above mentioned causes)

If you can explain how the above four causes can result in sexual abuse I would be very interested to know. Thank you.
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:21 am

waimengwan wrote:I agree to disagree. Sounds corny but the truth does set us free.

utuniyama - environmental causes
bhijaniyama - inherited causes (what we would call "genetics" today)
cittaniyama - non-intentional psychological causes
dhammaniyama - natural causes (a catch all for anything not falling in the four above mentioned causes)

If you can explain how the above four causes can result in sexual abuse I would be very interested to know. Thank you.

Dhammaniyama, obviously.

Utuniyama due to the kamma of the abuser.

Cittaniyama due to the mental dysfunction of the abuser.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: In need of a mentor.

Postby waimengwan » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:18 pm

Utuniyama means the abuser has the karma to create even much more negative karma?

Cittaniyama I read this as causing harm without motive?

Dhammaniyama is like the seasons changing and is independent of one's karma.

this is interesting to learn if you could explain more that would benefit me and many people on the forum.
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