Alex123 wrote:if kāma means 5 sense consciousness rather than lust toward 5 sense consciousness, then an Arahant who has no kāma would have to be blind and deaf...etc...
That's not what I meant. I didn't say it is all 5 sense consciousness is gone forever, I said it is the (unwanted) movement
of the mind to go outward when meditating. An arahant can access the jhanas without any problem partly because (s)he doesn't have this tendency. (S)he is really unattached to the body. In fact that's a non-returners thing but I think you get the idea now. It's really the desire part which is essential, as I also stipulated. So yes, it is lust towards the 5 senses, but a very subtle form of lust, not the coarse one that one would ordinarily describe to it in my opinion.
So, yeah, just to make up for some confusion, I should have added the word 'unwanted' in there. Was thinking about it after I posted, but couldn't bother. Should've though, in hindsight.
Gotta go to bed now, just a quick reply to manas: Thanks for the kind response. I agree that's how Buddhist should be able to discuss, being able to share your view without being attached to it. But for me it's mainly that often these endless discussions didn't really seem to help anyone, not even just to let them vaguely understand another point of view. So if it's of no apparent use to anyone, I don't tend to bother anymore.
But since you seem genuinely interested, to quickly answer your post: The breath also has a mental part to it. It slowly transforms from being coarse and bodily into more subtle mental representations. But in fact the main part of the anapanasati sutta that really tells you to focus directly on the physical breath is the first tetrad. After that it goes into the mental representation and in the third tetrad it even literally says 'remains focussed on the mind'. If we are to develop one pointed attention, surely there can not be both the physical breath and the mind at the same time as I see it.
But anyway, said my thing. If you feel like opening a new thread go ahead, I may or may not repond there. Just telling you already, no need to be concerned!