Is everything kamma?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
whynotme
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Is everything kamma?

Post by whynotme »

Hi everyone

Is everything one meet, see, or everything happens because of kamma? It seems it is the attitude of mahayana while therevada ie, "Questions of Milinda" has stated that not everything is because of kamma but that book isn't Nikaya. What is your opinion?

Kamma is seen as cause and effect when the mind and intention are involved. Physical laws are not kamma but is it totally controlled by kamma? I.e some random objects may fall on one because of kamma (angulimala sutta). Is everyone I meet today is because of kamma?

Regards.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings whynotme,

Kamma is action, and any sankhara (formation) is an action. Therefore, you could look to paticcasamuppada (dependent origination) for a detailed account of what occurs as a result of kamma.

If you don't adopt the detailed account, you'll have to instead adopt the simple account, and the risk here is that kamma all too easily becomes interpreted as something that is performed by a fixed agent (e.g. an atman - self, or puggala - person) who in turn receives the vipaka (fruit) of their action. The simple account may be useful to encourage moral behaviour in those who are unwilling or unable to comprehend the more detailed account, but if you're not careful, you'll find yourself coming up against all manner of contradictions.

Tread with care, and all the best.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
whynotme
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Post by whynotme »

Ah thank you, sorry my bad, English isn't my first language and sometimes I tried to think in it so it is not clear. The Buddha and arahant do not create kamma, but without my own language, I can not discuss any clearer.

Well, I will wait for others to discuss and learn something (include the using of language)

Regards
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Cittasanto
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Post by Cittasanto »

whynotme wrote:Hi everyone

Is everything one meet, see, or everything happens because of kamma? It seems it is the attitude of mahayana while therevada ie, "Questions of Milinda" has stated that not everything is because of kamma but that book isn't Nikaya. What is your opinion?

Kamma is seen as cause and effect when the mind and intention are involved. Physical laws are not kamma but is it totally controlled by kamma? I.e some random objects may fall on one because of kamma (angulimala sutta). Is everyone I meet today is because of kamma?

Regards.
not all things that happen to us is due to our Kamma, sometimes it is disease (four of the reasons), Kamma, carelesness, changes in season, and harsh treatment as found in SN36.21

now although this list does include things which could be the result of past Kamma, not all are necessarily the result all the time.
I take season to also include natural cycles that result in storms and earthquakes & harsh treatment being what we or another does fwit.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Post by Cittasanto »

whynotme wrote:Ah thank you, sorry my bad, English isn't my first language and sometimes I tried to think in it so it is not clear. The Buddha and arahant do not create kamma, but without my own language, I can not discuss any clearer.

Well, I will wait for others to discuss and learn something (include the using of language)

Regards
Hi,
The Buddha and Arahant do intentionally act although it is a particular type of Kamma known as Action that is neither black or white, it has no vipaka (fruit) which would condition a next life to is in a sense neutral.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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cooran
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Post by cooran »

whynotme wrote:Hi everyone

Is everything one meet, see, or everything happens because of kamma? It seems it is the attitude of mahayana while therevada ie, "Questions of Milinda" has stated that not everything is because of kamma but that book isn't Nikaya. What is your opinion?

Kamma is seen as cause and effect when the mind and intention are involved. Physical laws are not kamma but is it totally controlled by kamma? I.e some random objects may fall on one because of kamma (angulimala sutta). Is everyone I meet today is because of kamma?

Regards.
Hello whynotme,

This teaching by Mahasi Sayadaw may be of assistance:

• WHAT IS KARMA?
• KARMA AND VIPAKA
• WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF KARMA?
• CLASSIFICATION OF KARMA
• QUESTIONS ON THE THEORY OF KARMA
• NATURE OF KARMA
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

whynotme wrote:It seems it is the attitude of mahayana while therevada ie, "Questions of Milinda" has stated that not everything is because of kamma but that book isn't Nikaya. What is your opinion?
The Milindapañha was included in the Khudakanikāya by the Chattha Sangayana. I don't know if it was included earlier — presumably it was, or it might have disappeared by now. The Visuddhimagga, by way of contrast, is included in "Other books." Both of them are more like Commentaries than Suttas, but they are not classified as Aṭṭhakathā.

Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammāsambuddhassa
Khuddakanikāye
Milindapañhapāḷi

Some Pāli texts were obviously later than the time of the Buddha. Even the Atthakanagara Sutta was taught by Ānanda after the passing away of the Buddha, but was included in the Majjhimanikāya at the First Council.

I don't think there is any difference of attitude between Mahāyāna and Theravāda — both teach that kamma is not determinism.

The Milindapañha is only quoting older texts like the Moliyasivaka Sutta. No doubt, the reasons that it is included in the Khuddakanikāya is to ensure that it preserved for future generations. I spent several years of my early monk's life editing and abridging it to make it more accessible to modern western readers, who are almost always in a hurry, and want just the essential teachings as briefly as possible. The Debate of King Milinda is a useful introduction to key points of Buddhist doctrine. Hopefully, reading it will encourage people to look up the relevant passages in the Tipitaka and learn to find their way around the texts.
Last edited by Bhikkhu Pesala on Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SayalayMaCandasobha
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Post by SayalayMaCandasobha »

Is everything one meet, see, or everything happens because of kamma?
As far as I understand, everything does not depend on kamma.
For example, matter is conditionned by 4 factors : kamma, mind (citta), seasonal conditions (utu) and food (āhāra).

You can find more explanations in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (starting from p337)

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

WIth metta
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whynotme
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Post by whynotme »

Oh many thanks everyone, it is clear now.
The Buddha and Arahant do intentionally act although it is a particular type of Kamma known as Action that is neither black or white, it has no vipaka (fruit) which would condition a next life to is in a sense neutral.
Dear Sittasanto,

What make their actions different?

Regards
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waimengwan
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Post by waimengwan »

Thank you cittasanto for the information that not everything is due to karma.

Yes carelessness and harsh treatment can create causes for us to endure in the future.

Earthquakes can that be a change of season ? Spring to Winter I would say it is.
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Alobha
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Post by Alobha »

Cittasanto wrote: not all things that happen to us is due to our Kamma, sometimes it is disease (four of the reasons), Kamma, carelesness, changes in season, and harsh treatment as found in SN36.21

now although this list does include things which could be the result of past Kamma, not all are necessarily the result all the time.
I take season to also include natural cycles that result in storms and earthquakes & harsh treatment being what we or another does fwit.
Yes, not everything that happens to us is due to our Kamma. But if it wasn't for our kamma, nothing bad would happen to us.
Depending on the perspective, one could argue that everything you suffer is due to your kamma. The kamma that brought you into this life with the many dangers and suffering - the karmic process (kamma-bhava) is just explaining that it's kamma why jati / birth occurs. If we wouldn't have the particular kamma to be born (in this or a lower realm), none of this would happen to us. From a level of ultimate truth, every kind of suffering can be prevented by reaching parinibbana and never being born again. No birth, no suffering, right? That's the deathless.

The Sivaka Sutta probably needs to be seen in the context. Moliyasivaka the wanderer heard from the brahmans that "there are some brahmans & contemplatives who are of this doctrine, this view: Whatever an individual feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — is entirely caused by what was done before."
Of course this means that Moliyasivaka asked the Buddha about whether pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain are determined in this life for a person by the past.
Which is not the case. And while once birth (by our kamma!) occurs, suffering is just inevitable to happen, not every pleasure and every suffering is caused by what was done before on a more basic level. Like weather, diseases etc.

So, on a meta-level kamma is the reason why we are born and therefore is also the reason for the suffering in this life. I think that this might be a standpoint from which people can argue that khamma is the reason for all our experience. But this easily gives the wrong impression if not set in the right context. People don't die in a tornado because they did something bad in the past, but rather because they're born in this realm where tornados are part of the natural dangers. It can be easily misunderstod if one would say "this person died in the tornado because of her/his kamma" - It would be more accurate to say "this person died in a tornado because all people who are born, die sooner or later."

That's how i understand it. Please correct me if i'm wrong here.
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Post by Cittasanto »

whynotme wrote:Oh many thanks everyone, it is clear now.
The Buddha and Arahant do intentionally act although it is a particular type of Kamma known as Action that is neither black or white, it has no vipaka (fruit) which would condition a next life to is in a sense neutral.
Dear Sittasanto,

What make their actions different?

Regards
To be honest I do not know of any text which says it is this or that, but it is highly likely the lack of Clinging, & the lack of greed hatered & delusion.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Post by Cittasanto »

waimengwan wrote:Thank you cittasanto for the information that not everything is due to karma.

Yes carelessness and harsh treatment can create causes for us to endure in the future.

Earthquakes can that be a change of season ? Spring to Winter I would say it is.
It is a change in nature so I would argue that it is, all that is certain is that we will die, how is not determined untill the moment as far as I can tell in the canon.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Alobha
I maybe reading you wrong but that looks close to pre-destany at times to me.
Suffering itself is an action in regard to the second dart, but that doesn't mean that pain need be painful.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Post by jagodage »

Dear DW friends

There are Five causes for an action to happen.They are call Niyama Dhamma.

1 Utu Niyama
2 Dhamma Niyama
3 Kamma Niyama
4 Chitta Niyama
5 Beeja Niyama

Utu Niyama -These include actions due to Nature.Wind,Floods,Desert etc
Dhamma Niyama - These actions include tremor due Enlightment of Lord Buddha,Birth of Bodisattwa
Kamma Niyama -Action due to past action
Chitta Niyama - Action due to Chitta.Ex mind moments of chitta veetha.
Beeja Niyama- The birth of mango seed bears mango fruits.

So that Kamma Niyama is theoretically 1/5 of an action

With Metta

Jagodage
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