Path to Buddhahood

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Tiltbillings wrote:
"Putting an end to suffering is what the Buddha was all about, becoming no less than what he became, awake, buddha."

Putting an end to suffering is what the Buddha was about, becoming what he became, awake, and more possibilities to become perfect in every way..
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:Re-inventing the Buddha? Hardly.
Of course you are re-inventing the Buddha -- making a Buddha that's more compatible with your world view.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Tiltbillings wrote:
"Putting an end to suffering is what the Buddha was all about, becoming no less than what he became, awake, buddha."

Putting an end to suffering is what the Buddha was about, becoming what he became, awake, and more possibilities to become perfect in every way..
One can gain more powers, but being awake, buddha, is the only perfection that really matters.
  • 'Two things, o monks, I [the Buddha] came to know well: not to be content with good states of mind, so far achieved and to be unremitting in the struggle for the goal. Unremittingly, indeed, did I struggle and I resolved: "Let skin, sinews and bones remain; let flesh and blood in the body dry up: yet there shall be no ceasing of energy, manly energy, manly effort!"

    'Through heedfulness have I won sambodhi, through effort have I won the unsurpassable security from bondage
    [yogakkhemo=nibbana]. 'If you, O monks, will struggle unremittingly and resolve: "Let skin ... [as above] manly effort" -- then you, too, O monks, will soon realize here and now, through your own direct knowledge, that unequaled goal of the holy life."' -- AN II ii 5.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Re-inventing the Buddha? Hardly.
Of course you are re-inventing the Buddha -- making a Buddha that's more compatible with your world view.
So you claim, but not that you have shown that I am "re-inventing the Buddha." And you know what my "world view" is? I have told you?

I don't need to "re-invent" the Buddha. I am simply taking the suttas seriously.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Re-inventing the Buddha? Hardly.
Of course you are re-inventing the Buddha -- making a Buddha that's more compatible with your world view.
So you claim, but not that you have shown that I am "re-inventing the Buddha." And you know what my "world view" is? I have told you?

I don't need to "re-invent" the Buddha. I am simply taking the suttas seriously.
Okay then, which Buddhist school accepts your conclusion?
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Tiltbillings wrote:
"One can gain more powers, but being awake, buddha, is the only perfection that really matters"

Obviously the ending of suffering should be a perfection that matters a lot. Nevertheless, the fact remains clear that there'll be a lot more to be done, to fully earn all Ten Epithets, not just the epithet of Arahant, but also the epithet of Samma-Sambuddha..
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote: Okay then, which Buddhist school accepts your conclusion?
Interestingly, given that divergences among the various Buddhist schools about the nature of the Buddha and arahants, that hardly seems to be a meaningful criteria. We have the suttas; while they may not be enough for you without the texts you mentioned as tools for interpreting the suttas, I find that concerning the issue of bodhi, the attainment of liberation/nibbana, the suttas have a great deal to say in terms of the Buddha and the arahant. No need for later sectarian interpretations.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Tiltbillings wrote:
"One can gain more powers, but being awake, buddha, is the only perfection that really matters"

Obviously the ending of suffering should be a perfection that matters a lot. Nevertheless, the fact remains clear that there'll be a lot more to be done, to fully earn all Ten Epithets, not just the epithet of Arahant, but also the epithet of Samma-Sambuddha..
Did the Buddha teach earning the "epithet of Samma-Sambuddha" as a goal?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote: Okay then, which Buddhist school accepts your conclusion?
Interestingly, given that divergences among the various Buddhist schools about the nature of the Buddha and arahants, that hardly seems to be a meaningful criteria. We have the suttas; while they may not be enough for you without the texts you mentioned as tools for interpreting the suttas, I find that concerning the issue of bodhi, the attainment of liberation/nibbana, the suttas have a great deal to say in terms of the Buddha and the arahant. No need for later sectarian interpretations.
Then your conclusion has no historical lineage, and is your own conception of the Buddha based on your interpretation of the Pāli suttas.
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Tiltbillings wrote:
"Did the Buddha teach earning the "epithet of Samma-Sambuddha" as a goal?"

Did He ever tell not to earn the epithet of Samma-Sambuddha?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote: Okay then, which Buddhist school accepts your conclusion?
Interestingly, given that divergences among the various Buddhist schools about the nature of the Buddha and arahants, that hardly seems to be a meaningful criteria. We have the suttas; while they may not be enough for you without the texts you mentioned as tools for interpreting the suttas, I find that concerning the issue of bodhi, the attainment of liberation/nibbana, the suttas have a great deal to say in terms of the Buddha and the arahant. No need for later sectarian interpretations.
Then your conclusion has no historical lineage, and is your own conception of the Buddha based on your interpretation of the Pāli suttas.
I never said it was other than a carefully done exegitical examanation of the suttas around the issue of the Buddha and the arahant and the nature of bodhi. Historical lineage has its place, but it is no guarantee. In this, I am with Dharmakirti on this:
  • People, afraid of being deceived by false teachers.
    In the matter of directing the ignorant,
    Seek out a man with knowledge,
    for the sake of realising his teaching.

    What is the use of his knowledge
    pertaining to the number of insects in the whole world?
    Rather, inquire into his knowledge of
    that which is to be practised by us
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Tiltbillings wrote:
"Did the Buddha teach earning the "epithet of Samma-Sambuddha" as a goal?"

Did He ever tell not to earn the epithet of Samma-Sambuddha?
That seems to be a thing that developed after the death of the Buddha. I am inclined to think that if the Buddha had thought it was important he would have clearly taught it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Tiltbillings wrote:
"That seems to be a thing that developed after the death of the Buddha. I am inclined to think that if the Buddha had thought it was important he would have clearly taught it."

Obviously the keyword is "Seems to be", so your're entitled to your own interpretation..
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Tiltbillings wrote:
"That seems to be a thing that developed after the death of the Buddha. I am inclined to think that if the Buddha had thought it was important he would have clearly taught it."

Obviously the keyword is "Seems to be", so your're entitled to your own interpretation..
Drop the "seems to be." Being from Minnesota I am given to understatement. The suttas clearly do not teach a path to sammasambuddha-hood. Where that sort of thing starts to take place is in the post-death of Buddha literature among the various schools of Buddhism that were popping up, where we start getting biographies (hagiographies) of the Buddha, a valorization of the Buddha that starts separating him from the arahant in terms of status in ways not found in the suttas. It is out of that that the idea of a bodhisatta path emerges, not out the direct teachings of the Buddha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Tiltbillings wrote:
" Where that sort of thing starts to take place is in the post-death of Buddha literature among the various schools of Buddhism that were popping up, where we start getting biographies (hagiographies) of the Buddha, a valorization of the Buddha that starts separating him from the arahant in terms of status in ways not found in the suttas. It is out of that that the idea of a bodhisatta path emerges, not out the direct teachings of the Buddha."

And without "that sort of things", young prince Siddhattha would never become the the 28th Samma-Sambuddha. Kassapa Buddha would have no sucessor, and you wouldn't be here to "grade" the Buddha's capability..
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