YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Path to Buddhahood - Page 11 - Dhamma Wheel

Path to Buddhahood

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:17 am


santa100
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby santa100 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:36 am

Tiltbillings wrote:
"First of all the "beings and persons" is in no way limited in its description the text in question for the monk how has that power. All the AN texts is saying is that the Buddha knows the contents of the minds of beings and persons. Obviously if it is not in their minds, it is not known by the Buddha. The AN text is not a statement of omniscience anymore than is the SN statement."

Obviously it did not have "whatever in the cosmos". It's specifically "beings and persons", regardless of whether in the unlimited or limted sense, but that's still it. And as long as that "whatever" is still being "sought after" or "pondering by the intellect", the Buddha has direct knowledge. Thus it's obvious that the scope of the AN excerpt is the "superset" to that of the SN excerpt..

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:31 am


User avatar
Dmytro
Posts: 1448
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine
Contact:

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Dmytro » Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:43 am

Last edited by Dmytro on Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:29 am


santa100
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby santa100 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:34 pm

Tiltbillings wrote:
"Not that you have shown.
You try to weight these: '"sought after" or "pondering by the intellect", the Buddha has direct knowledge,' but the problem with this is what does it actually mean? Walshe's translation: "whatever was achieved, sought after or mentally pondered upon" and Ven Thanisarrao's: "attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect." Both translations point to experiences in the past tense, which is to say it has to do with memory. It is mind reading, not omniscience"

I did. But you did not. Read Thanissaro's translastion again on this: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html , he used the big word "IS", not "WAS". The message can't be any clearer than that.

Tiltbillings wrote:
"The SN is still open ended, not limited, which put it out there with "whatever in the cosmos.""

If there's no "whatever in the cosmos", then it simply cannot be put out there with the AN excerpt. That simple..

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Nyana » Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:38 pm


User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby daverupa » Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:43 pm

As already discussed, it's a matter of whether this or that interpretive authority is considered as valid for the purpose of understanding what one can read in the suttas. Citing more authority isn't going to change this fundamental difference in approach.

(No. 8 in that link, for example, is utterly problematic.)

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 10648
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:53 pm

Image




santa100
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby santa100 » Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:32 am

And that's all fine and dandy David. There's certainly no need to associate any Allah-like attribute to our Buddha. Now, there's an important point to notice, that the "commentarial view" in Dhammanando's quote is exactly that of the Theravada exegetical tradition. Here is the full note from Bhikkhu Bodhi in his MN book:

[Note 714]: "MA explains that even though part of the statement is valid, the Buddha rejects the entire statement because of the portion that is invalid. The part of the statement that is valid is the assertion that the Buddha is omniscient and all-seeing; the part that is excessive is the assertion that knowledge and vision are continuously present to him. According to the Theravāda exegetical tradition the Buddha is omniscient in the sense that all knowable things are potentially accessible to him. He cannot, however, know everything simultaneously and must advert to whatever he wishes to know. At MN 90.8 the Buddha says that it is possible to know and see all, though not simultaneously, and at AN 4:24/ii.24 he claims to know all that can be seen, heard, sensed, and cognized. This is understood by the Theravāda commentators as an assertion of omniscience in the qualified sense. See too in this connection Miln 102–7."

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby daverupa » Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:38 am


santa100
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby santa100 » Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:01 am

Daverupa wrote:
"...which is exactly what's been mentioned repeatedly... the assertion requires commentarial referents, and otherwise has nothing to do with the degree of freedom from the asavas."

Which is fine with me. You've probably noticed all my posts so far, I don't dispute the elimination of the asavas of the arahants as any less than that of the Buddha. I do however, consistently emphasize the point the Buddha did go further than any of His disciples in attaining other capabilities (and I'm quite liberal in word usage, call it omniscience or samma-sambodhi or whatever you see fit). To me, it'd be wrong to say that the range/scope of attainments of the Noble disciples match exactly that of the Buddha. They only match the Buddha in regard to the specific domain of the ending of asavas. This has no contradiction to what Ven. Bodhi said, and also what the Theravada exegetical tradition said. It's that simple..

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Nyana » Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:27 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:34 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:39 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:41 am


santa100
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby santa100 » Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:08 am

Tiltbillings wrote:
"I am not going to convince you, nor you me; however, that is really beside my point: The bodhi attained by the Buddha is no different from that attained by the arahants"

Of course, it's not part of my intention to begin with, and that's also beside my point: The arahants and the Buddha attained bodhi, the Buddha went the extra miles and attained samma-sambodhi..

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:10 am


santa100
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby santa100 » Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:13 am

Neither same nor different, read my original post again..

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:16 am



Return to “Connections to Other Paths”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine