Re: A discussion of bodhi
Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:22 am
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No. parāyanaṃi is in SN iv 373. virāga (dispassion) is in SN iv 371. See CDB 1378-9.Dmytro wrote:Hi Cittanurakkho,
Yes, there's certainly an error.cittaanurakkho wrote:Excuse me tilt,None of the many suttas that use this list support your modification of the list in this way. This is not a list of progression. I'll go with Occam Razor here. It is far more simply a list showing different aspects of of the same thing. You also ignore the fact the most of the items in this list, as stated, are used specifically to refer to the goal, as I have shown, as is plainly obvious with virāga: S.N. IV 371: "That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is destruction of craving [virāga]." Your discussion of cessation, I find equally unconvincing. Cessation is used repeatedly at the end of a number progressive paticcasamuppada type lists to indicate nibbana. You have made things far too complicated where it seems it is far more straightforward.
craving: (f.) taṇhā; nikanti; abhijjhā.
It is not virāga.
S.N. IV. 371 reads:
Yo, bhikkhave, rāgakkhayo dosakkhayo mohakkhayo – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, parāyanaṃ.
"That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion - is what's called a Further Shore."
Not that you have shown.Dmytro wrote:Hi Cittanurakkho,
There's certainly a progression in this listcittaanurakkho wrote:Because I don’t equate (Sam)bodhi with Nibbana, when I read the list above, instead of synonym I see a progression, like stages of development culminating in Nibbana. In fact, one can fit Buddha chronology of his development into the list:
1. His complete disenchantment with the sorrow of daily, aging, death.
2. His dispassion of that life that drives him to become contemplative.
3. His cessation of lay life and beginning of contemplative life.
4. His peace obtain through samadhi.
5. The three knowledge obtain in the night of his enlightenment.
6. To his englightenment.
7. Nibbana
Here's a good place to begin this investigation, possibly worth it's own thread:cittaanurakkho wrote:Good to know. Do you have examples from Pali sutta?
because nirodha and nibbana, as I see it, are synonymous. dukkhanirodha is descriptive; nibbana is one among many metaphors for this, not a separate 'thing', as I understand it.If Noble Eightfold Paths is conditioned then the Four Noble Truths is also conditioned. As Nirodha is in Four Noble Truths, this will make Nirodha conditioned. However, Nibbana is unconditioned so I think this will rule out that Nirodha is equal to Nibbana.
If one complete the (Sam)bodhi then one have Nibbana.tiltbillings wrote: So, you can have sambodhi without having nibbana, and you have nibbana without having sambodhi, is that what you are saying?
The Buddha enter nibbana immediately after he emerges from the fourth Jhana without going through (Sam)bodhi. However, Buddha had to go through (Sam)bodhi first when he for the first time enter Nibbana during the night of his awakening. If Buddha can enter Nibbana without going through (Sam)bodhi all the time then (Sam)bodhi is not Nibbana.Then the Blessed One, emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, entered the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Emerging from that, he entered the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the fourth jhana... the third... the second... the first jhana. Emerging from the first jhana he entered the second... the third... the fourth jhana. Emerging from the fourth jhana, he immediately was totally Unbound.
cittaanurakkho wrote:If one complete the (Sam)bodhi then one have Nibbana.tiltbillings wrote: So, you can have sambodhi without having nibbana, and you have nibbana without having sambodhi, is that what you are saying?
One can have Nibbana without having (Sam)bodhi. The proof is from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
The Buddha enter nibbana immediately after he emerges from the fourth Jhana without going through (Sam)bodhi. However, Buddha had to go through (Sam)bodhi first when he for the first time enter Nibbana during the night of his awakening. If Buddha can enter Nibbana without going through (Sam)bodhi all the time then (Sam)bodhi is not Nibbana.Then the Blessed One, emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, entered the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Emerging from that, he entered the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the fourth jhana... the third... the second... the first jhana. Emerging from the first jhana he entered the second... the third... the fourth jhana. Emerging from the fourth jhana, he immediately was totally Unbound.
If (Sam)bodhi is not Nibbana, then all the six items in that list (complete disenchantment [ekantanibbāya], dispassion [virāgāya], cessation [nirodhāya], peace[upasamāya], direct knowledge [abhiññāya], enlightenment [sambodhāya]) cannot be read as synonym with Nibbana: they are conditional processes. So does Four Noble Truth and Eight Noble Path.
That is my understanding. I am running out of more ideas and words to show further evidences. So I’d like to rest my case.
Really? Are you saying he enter a different Nibbana?ancientbuddhism wrote: This is a muddle of the parinibbāna of the Buddha with the liberation from greed, antipathy and delusion – Nibbāna - of the arahant.
I think he is saying that the final breakup of the aggregates is different than the nibbana which arahants experience in this very life, and quoting from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta is confusing this distinction.cittaanurakkho wrote:Really? Are you saying he enter a different Nibbana?ancientbuddhism wrote: This is a muddle of the parinibbāna of the Buddha with the liberation from greed, antipathy and delusion – Nibbāna - of the arahant.
Yes.cittaanurakkho wrote:Is the sanna refer to the sanna of the khandas?
Indeed. Here's another detailed description:If I understand you correctly this is like intentionally developing the perception of impermanance, ... ,... , in stages/progressively during the practice?
Buddhist Hybrid English can sometimes hinder understanding.vinasp wrote:So (sam)bodhi [awakening] is only a temporary experience?
As I understand it, yes a one time experience."So (sam)bodhi [awakening] is only a temporary experience?"
"Is cessation also only temporary? "
Other sutta (SN v 433) mentioned that the knowledge of Four Noble Truths is the marker of awakening (sambodhi). But here, even after the knowledge of Four Noble Truths (which include nirodha/cessation), there were still other knowledge arising: knowledge of fermentations, …, the way leading to fermentations, which I understand to indicate the knowledge of dependent origination. And finally he said knowing that, his heart was released (vimutti) from fermentations of sensuality, released from becoming, and released from ignorance. Along with the release there was the knowledge: “Released”, which I understand is vimutti, the marker of the beginning of Nibbana."When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
No, not temporary. Once one go through (sam)bodhi one attained nibbana."And (sam)bodhi leads to a temporary experience of nibbana?"
Nibbana refer to the unconditioned."How do you understand the distinction between nibbana and parinibbana?"
As I understand it, there is no Nibbana with residue or Nibbana without residue. Nibbana is just Nibbana. Perhaps you are referring to Iti 44, Iti 38"How do you understand the distinction between nibbana with residue, and nibbana without residue? "
Ven. Walpola is correct, one does not enter into Nibbana after death.Walpola Rahula, in 'What the Buddha Taught', page 41, says:
"There is no such thing as 'entering into Nirvana after death.'"
What do you think about this statement?