I think it is not a matter of proof but a matter of faith, at this point. 50 years ago some of the subatomic particles found recently would be just theoretical. No point expecting proof when the instrument which can measure it doesn't exist. All we have now is a theory. Is this theory helpful for you and how much faith do you have in the person who proclaimed this theory? Without this faith what have you reduced this practice to?
With metta
Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
- LonesomeYogurt
- Posts: 900
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
- Location: America
Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?
A non-material explanation is hardly discounted because material evidence cannot be found.daverupa wrote:Fairly useless without experimental design and predictive ability, thereby failing to distinguish itself from any other speculation.
The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.
Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.
His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta
Stuff I write about things.
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.
Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.
His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta
Stuff I write about things.
-
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:11 am
Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?
Exactly! People of faith, whatever faith that may be should stick to their faith and not try to prove their beliefs scientifically! Science and faith are incompatible.rowyourboat wrote:I think it is not a matter of proof but a matter of faith
- ancientbuddhism
- Posts: 887
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
- Location: Cyberia
Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?
The stories are surly fantastic, if one has not been around children much. One obvious incongruence is that “…all that information “got inside their brain”…” yet the language used to express it took the regular path of development.gavesako wrote: ...
Then there are other well-documented cases in the West which involve young children, consider for example the boy who remembered details of his past life as a fighter pilot shot down in WWII:
...
Someone who does not accept rebirth as the most obvious explanation should at least suggest some other way how all that information "got inside their brain" and how they acquired the special abilities which they display at a very young age.
“I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
- BubbaBuddhist
- Posts: 640
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:55 am
- Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
- Contact:
Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?
It's an unfortunate argument when people say there is no Santa Claus. Sorry, you skeptics--there is. In fact, as the photo below proves (third from either side), he was best man at my wedding:
Don't be quite so quick to dismiss the existence of things just because you haven't experienced them directly.
BB
Don't be quite so quick to dismiss the existence of things just because you haven't experienced them directly.
BB
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?
Heaven Is Real/Home Of God Is Dark !!??
Dear Members,
Heaven is real..definitely YES. Home of God is dark...NO WAY/IMPOSSIBLE!!!
This Uposatha day I read an interesting news:
Heaven is real, says neurosurgeon who claims to have visited the afterlife
[By Eric pfeiffer, yahoo news]
Dr. Eben Alexander has taught at Harvard Medical School and has earned a strong reputation as a neurosurgeon. And while Alexander says he's long called himself a Christian, he never held deeply religious beliefs or a pronounced faith in the afterlife.
But after a week in a coma during the fall of 2008, during which his neocortex ceased to function, Alexander claims he experienced a life-changing visit to the afterlife, specifically heaven.
"According to current medical understanding of the brain and mind, there is absolutely no way that I could have experienced even a dim and limited consciousness during my time in the coma, much less the hyper-vivid and completely coherent odyssey I underwent," Alexander writes in the cover story of this week's edition of Newsweek.
So what exactly does heaven look like?
Alexander says he first found himself floating above clouds before witnessing, "transparent, shimmering beings arced across the sky, leaving long, streamer like lines behind them."
He claims to have been escorted by an unknown female companion and says he communicated with these beings through a method of correspondence that transcended language. Alexander says the messages he received from those beings loosely translated as:
"You are loved and cherished, dearly, forever."
"You have nothing to fear."
"There is nothing you can do wrong."
From there, Alexander claims to have traveled to "an immense void, completely dark, infinite in size, yet also infinitely comforting." He believes this void was the home of God.
After recovering from his meningitis-induced coma, Alexander says he was reluctant to share his experience with his colleagues but found comfort inside the walls of his church. He's chronicled his experience in a new book, "Proof of Heaven: A neurosurgeon's journey into the afterlife," which will be published in late October.
"I'm still a doctor, and still a man of science every bit as much as I was before I had my experience," Alexander writes. "But on a deep level I'm very different from the person I was before, because I've caught a glimpse of this emerging picture of reality. And you can believe me when I tell you that it will be worth every bit of the work it will take us, and those who come after us, to get it right."
*************
But I don't think the 'home of God' is dark!!
Heaven must be so bright with all beautiful/splendid celestial things/celestial angels.
yawares
Heaven is real..definitely YES. Home of God is dark...NO WAY/IMPOSSIBLE!!!
This Uposatha day I read an interesting news:
Heaven is real, says neurosurgeon who claims to have visited the afterlife
[By Eric pfeiffer, yahoo news]
Dr. Eben Alexander has taught at Harvard Medical School and has earned a strong reputation as a neurosurgeon. And while Alexander says he's long called himself a Christian, he never held deeply religious beliefs or a pronounced faith in the afterlife.
But after a week in a coma during the fall of 2008, during which his neocortex ceased to function, Alexander claims he experienced a life-changing visit to the afterlife, specifically heaven.
"According to current medical understanding of the brain and mind, there is absolutely no way that I could have experienced even a dim and limited consciousness during my time in the coma, much less the hyper-vivid and completely coherent odyssey I underwent," Alexander writes in the cover story of this week's edition of Newsweek.
So what exactly does heaven look like?
Alexander says he first found himself floating above clouds before witnessing, "transparent, shimmering beings arced across the sky, leaving long, streamer like lines behind them."
He claims to have been escorted by an unknown female companion and says he communicated with these beings through a method of correspondence that transcended language. Alexander says the messages he received from those beings loosely translated as:
"You are loved and cherished, dearly, forever."
"You have nothing to fear."
"There is nothing you can do wrong."
From there, Alexander claims to have traveled to "an immense void, completely dark, infinite in size, yet also infinitely comforting." He believes this void was the home of God.
After recovering from his meningitis-induced coma, Alexander says he was reluctant to share his experience with his colleagues but found comfort inside the walls of his church. He's chronicled his experience in a new book, "Proof of Heaven: A neurosurgeon's journey into the afterlife," which will be published in late October.
"I'm still a doctor, and still a man of science every bit as much as I was before I had my experience," Alexander writes. "But on a deep level I'm very different from the person I was before, because I've caught a glimpse of this emerging picture of reality. And you can believe me when I tell you that it will be worth every bit of the work it will take us, and those who come after us, to get it right."
*************
But I don't think the 'home of God' is dark!!
Heaven must be so bright with all beautiful/splendid celestial things/celestial angels.
yawares
Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?
Whatever problems arise, they arise right
here. “Is death followed by rebirth? By annihi-
lation? Is there a next world? Does hell exist?
Does heaven? Does evil exist? Does merit?” Ev-
erywhere I go, there’s the same question: “Do
heaven and hell exist?” I never feel like answer-
ing. I don’t see any reason to answer it, because
that which is burdened with heaven and hell
is the heart, which everyone already has. So
why waste time answering? After all, I’m not a
record-keeper for heaven and hell! Living beings
are reborn in various realms of existence through the power
of the good and bad kamma within the heart. The heart itself
is what’s reborn into those realms. If we don’t solve the
problem right in the heart, we’ll never be able to escape
the bonfires of suffering and anxiety.
-- Luangta Maha Boowa, "Samana"
here. “Is death followed by rebirth? By annihi-
lation? Is there a next world? Does hell exist?
Does heaven? Does evil exist? Does merit?” Ev-
erywhere I go, there’s the same question: “Do
heaven and hell exist?” I never feel like answer-
ing. I don’t see any reason to answer it, because
that which is burdened with heaven and hell
is the heart, which everyone already has. So
why waste time answering? After all, I’m not a
record-keeper for heaven and hell! Living beings
are reborn in various realms of existence through the power
of the good and bad kamma within the heart. The heart itself
is what’s reborn into those realms. If we don’t solve the
problem right in the heart, we’ll never be able to escape
the bonfires of suffering and anxiety.
-- Luangta Maha Boowa, "Samana"
- Attachments
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Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?
Here is a nice short video by Dr Woraphat Phucharoen, a Thai scientist who used to work for NASA in America. He was a Christian first, but when he discovered Buddhism, he was so attracted by it that he wanted to study it deeply, and so he calls it the Inner Science as opposed to Outer Science. He became a monk and was experimenting with natural truth by practice. Now he is a popular lay Dhamma teacher, quite funny too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2LW2CC ... ure=colike" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (English subtitles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2LW2CC ... ure=colike" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (English subtitles)
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
- drifting cloud
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:24 am
Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?
Because in many cases of reported OBE or NDE, the individual is not "pumped full of drugs", they are clinically dead. It's not a question of "brain malfunctions"; there is literally no detectable brain function. And yet these people continue to experience.Alex123 wrote:It is interesting that these "journeys" tend to occur in hospital when a person is pumped with drugs or when brain malfunctions...gavesako wrote:When a neurosurgeon found himself in a coma, he experienced things he never thought possible—a journey to the afterlife.
How do we know that these memories are not by-product of the brain and/or its malfunction?
How is it possible that a person has conscious experience, and can sometimes even report things that were said and done in their presence, with no brain function?
Now, while this does not necessarily validate any of these particular experiences, it does seem to indicate that consciousness is not simply reducible to the brain, and can operate independently of it. At the very least it suggests that present scientific models do not adequately account for consciousness.
Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?
What happens chemically when the brain is about to shut down or restart?drifting cloud wrote:Because in many cases of reported OBE or NDE, the individual is not "pumped full of drugs", they are clinically dead.
How do we know that this eхperience doesn't happen prior to brain shut down, and/or after brain restarts?drifting cloud wrote: It's not a question of "brain malfunctions"; there is literally no detectable brain function. And yet these people continue to experience.
It would be interesting to study this thing. Did they guess or someone told them? Did their brain work at that instant of time?drifting cloud wrote:How is it possible that a person has conscious experience, and can sometimes even report things that were said and done in their presence, with no brain function?
Can dying brain record some data to be used when/if brain restarts to fully functioning?
Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?
Time dilation effects and created memories need to be ruled out as well.
So many variables... and, if as this guy says “There is nothing you can do wrong.” - well that's just swell!
(It's part of the primary source here; let's not discount it, as it has rather dire ethical consequences...)
So many variables... and, if as this guy says “There is nothing you can do wrong.” - well that's just swell!
(It's part of the primary source here; let's not discount it, as it has rather dire ethical consequences...)
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?
That seems to me a good way to think about it. Western science disregards subjective experience and subjective experience (of suffering) is why we are all here.gavesako wrote: so he calls it the Inner Science as opposed to Outer Science
Come to think of it, there is just as much objective proof of NDE's as for jhana or other meditative states, maybe more, because NDE experiencers can report events around them when they were technically dead. So in as far as we ask for proof of such experiences, arent buddhist meditators living in the proverbial glass house?
Last edited by m0rl0ck on Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?
sounds like an OBE to a heaven realm. i think a lot of religious mythology has developed around those types of experiences.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?
Obviously. But where will death take you?Mawkish1983 wrote:I used to be very troubled by these discussions. I've come to realise that whether there is an afterlife or not, whether consciousness is brain-made or not, whether rebirth occurs or not, I am still going to die. Regardless of my beliefs or otherwise, death will take me.
How do you know? You haven't been around eternally to tell whether "something" is permanent or not. There are some objects that are always there to our perception - the sun for instance. Astronomical theory suggests that the sun will die, but that's a theory, not anything you have perceived.Mawkish1983 wrote:I'm coming to terms with that now. Nothing I have yet perceived is eternal or permanent.
Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?
The father might be seeking fame - if people believe him imagine the book sales!gavesako wrote: Then there are other well-documented cases in the West which involve young children, consider for example the boy who remembered details of his past life as a fighter pilot shot down in WWII:
http://www.reversespins.com/proofofreincarnation.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;