Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

They seems to be imperfect, because they are impermanent
But they are also have perfection because they exist, because they are product of causes, like a bodies of living beings are perfect for their environement, or any other dhamma which is perfect in his existence, apropriate and made by it's invironement, made by causes.

What do you think?

perfect in what sense?

DAWN wrote:Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

They seems to be imperfect, because they are impermanent
But they are also have perfection because they exist, because they are product of causes, like a bodies of living beings are perfect for their environement, or any other dhamma which is perfect in his existence, apropriate and made by it's invironement, made by causes.

What do you think?

Dhamma is like a raft

The Buddha's teaching does not start off with any kind of theoretical dogmas or beliefs. It begins with a simple observations that human life is essentially problematic. These problems, difficulties, inadequacies the Buddha refers to as Dukkha, is usually translated as suffering. And the value of the Dhamma is pragmatic and instrumental.It offers to show us the way out of our problematic situations and the way to attain the true happiness.

The Buddha compares the Dhamma to a raft. We use a raft to get from one side of a river to the other, not to worship, enshrine or to put on our head and carry around with us wherever we go. In the same way, we use the Dhamma as our means to cross from our present state of bondage and suffering to the other shore, the state of absolute freedom, Nibbana.

http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/dham ... a_raft.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

acinteyyo wrote:perfect in what sense?

By perfection of one dhamma i mean that this dhamma is perfect in his existance, that fenomena is the fruit of conditions, made by his environement, fenomena cant be somethink different, it is what it is, it's perfect in his conditioned existance.

For exemple, when the room is not clean, many dhammas, many objects are dispached everywehe, and position of each object is perfect, is in absolute harmony with environement, because this position was determinated by causes. If i change this position, this object will move again, and when he will find his new perfect position,he will stop the movement. And if enviroement in room will change too, this object will move again, leaded by conditions of nw environement, and "find" the harmony position, position when all conditions will not be in "conflict" with this dhammas, and will let it be.

What is condition?
Condition is some kind of limit, so energy is conditioned by different ways, and when all conditions are here, fenomena apear in the "free" space, so fenomena is perfect in his conditioned existance.

I dont nkow if you see what i mean.

Kusala wrote: Dhamma is like a raft

The Buddha's teaching does not start off with any kind of theoretical dogmas or beliefs. It begins with a simple observations that human life is essentially problematic. These problems, difficulties, inadequacies the Buddha refers to as Dukkha, is usually translated as suffering. And the value of the Dhamma is pragmatic and instrumental.It offers to show us the way out of our problematic situations and the way to attain the true happiness.

The Buddha compares the Dhamma to a raft. We use a raft to get from one side of a river to the other, not to worship, enshrine or to put on our head and carry around with us wherever we go. In the same way, we use the Dhamma as our means to cross from our present state of bondage and suffering to the other shore, the state of absolute freedom, Nibbana.

http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/dham ... a_raft.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'ts true.
But if we understand how dhammas exist, how they move, we can adoptate our practice, our life, go with dhammas, and dont against dhammas, go with the flow, and dont against the flow.
Suffering is difference between what we magine dhammas to be, and what they realy are.

So perharps, if we understand the perfection of dhammas, we will not judge it, we will see their perfection, we will be in harmony with their existance, accept their existance, let them be, dont be conditioned by them, and finaly find the Calm.

The dhamma is to be seen by the "mind".....and for the "mind".....so the "mind" can be set "free".

Iti 92. Sa"nghaa.tika.n.na sutta : Seeing the Dhamma [Excerpt]

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Even if a monk, taking hold of my outer cloak, were to follow right behind me, placing his feet in my footsteps, yet if he were to be greedy for sensual pleasures, strong in his passions, malevolent in mind, corrupt in his resolves, his mindfulness muddled, unalert, uncentered, his mind scattered, and his faculties uncontrolled, then he would be far from me, and I from him. Why is that? Because he does not see the Dhamma. Not seeing the Dhamma, he does not see me (Dhamma.m apassanto na ma.m passati).

"But even if a monk were to live one hundred leagues away, yet if he were to have no greed for sensual objects, were not strong in his passions, not malevolent in mind, uncorrupt in his resolves, his mindfulness established, alert, centered, his mind at singleness, and his faculties well-restrained, then he would be near to me, and I to him. Why is that? Because he sees the Dhamma. Seeing the Dhamma, he sees me.

DAWN wrote:

acinteyyo wrote:perfect in what sense?

By perfection of one dhamma i mean that this dhamma is perfect in his existance, that fenomena is the fruit of conditions, made by his environement, fenomena cant be somethink different, it is what it is, it's perfect in his conditioned existance.

For exemple, when the room is not clean, many dhammas, many objects are dispached everywehe, and position of each object is perfect, is in absolute harmony with environement, because this position was determinated by causes. If i change this position, this object will move again, and when he will find his new perfect position,he will stop the movement. And if enviroement in room will change too, this object will move again, leaded by conditions of nw environement, and "find" the harmony position, position when all conditions will not be in "conflict" with this dhammas, and will let it be.

What is condition?
Condition is some kind of limit, so energy is conditioned by different ways, and when all conditions are here, fenomena apear in the "free" space, so fenomena is perfect in his conditioned existance.

I dont nkow if you see what i mean.

I see... but according to your definition then everything is perfect the way it is, isn't it?

acinteyyo wrote: I see... but according to your definition then everything is perfect the way it is, isn't it?

Yes it is. Dhammas are perfect in their conditions.

They seems to be perfect on relative point of view and absolute point of view, because they are in "harmony" on both. Do i mistake?

Salient feaures of Dhamma - By Bhikkhu Bodhi

Many shades of meaning

The Buddha's teaching is called the Dhamma. The word 'Dhamma' has several shades of meaning . In the most basic sense ' Dhamma' signifies the true nature of things. Dhamma is the fundamental element of lawfulness operating in the universe, structuring all events, all experience and all phenomena. All actual things, all phenomena are called dhammas in the plural because all of them embody the true nature of things.

Dhamma also means the ethical law, the fundamental principle of righteousness, the cosmic law of virtue and goodness.

Dhamma also has a practical sense, something applicable to our own life. Dhamma is that which sustains us , which supports us, or which upholds our own effort to live in virtue and goodness. In this sense Dhamma is the path. On the one hand it is the lower path of virtue, on the other, Dhamma is the Supramundane path, the higher path that leads to realization of the true nature of things.

The Buddha's teaching is called the Dhamma, because this teaching makes known the true nature of things - discloses the true nature of all existence.

http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/s_dhamma_.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DAWN wrote:Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

There is dependent arising and dependent cessation. Where and when does perfection arise? Where and when does imperfection arise?

ground wrote:

DAWN wrote:Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

There is dependent arising and dependent cessation. Where and when does perfection arise? Where and when does imperfection arise?

By following your question i can answer that "in dependent arising perfection arise".

Can i reformulate your question?
There is dependance, where is perfection?

Now i cant answer. (But actualy i an answer : Perfection is "There", so thee is acualy no question possible, perharps : "Dependence, perfection?" )

I see what you mean, i agree with you, there is no any perfect dhamma, there is no any dhamma in harmony, there is just pefection there is just harmony. But actualy is not the true question, the true question of this topic is if peoples see perfection or they see imperfection.

Buddha say that sankharas are dukkha, they are imperfect (only when the mind is full of difilements?), but we can see, here and now that they are actualy perfect by nature.

acinteyyo wrote:

DAWN wrote:

acinteyyo wrote:perfect in what sense?

By perfection of one dhamma i mean that this dhamma is perfect in his existance, that fenomena is the fruit of conditions, made by his environement, fenomena cant be somethink different, it is what it is, it's perfect in his conditioned existance.

For exemple, when the room is not clean, many dhammas, many objects are dispached everywehe, and position of each object is perfect, is in absolute harmony with environement, because this position was determinated by causes. If i change this position, this object will move again, and when he will find his new perfect position,he will stop the movement. And if enviroement in room will change too, this object will move again, leaded by conditions of nw environement, and "find" the harmony position, position when all conditions will not be in "conflict" with this dhammas, and will let it be.

What is condition?
Condition is some kind of limit, so energy is conditioned by different ways, and when all conditions are here, fenomena apear in the "free" space, so fenomena is perfect in his conditioned existance.

I dont nkow if you see what i mean.

I see... but according to your definition then everything is perfect the way it is, isn't it?

Precisely, even "going against dhammas", "judging dhammas", etc - all this is perfect too. Because these are dhammas too.

Such teachings can be helpful to end the wasteful inner fighting and instead simply attend carefully. IMO.

"Dharmas are without blame."

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:"Dharmas are without blame."

Does that apply even to lobha-mula-cittas that are characterised blaming something?

If not, wouldn't that be establishing a duality between experience and experiencer?

Metta,
Retro.

DAWN wrote: For exemple, when the room is not clean, many dhammas, many objects are dispached everywehe, and position of each object is perfect, is in absolute harmony with environement, because this position was determinated by causes. If i change this position, this object will move again, and when he will find his new perfect position,he will stop the movement. And if enviroement in room will change too, this object will move again, leaded by conditions of nw environement, and "find" the harmony position, position when all conditions will not be in "conflict" with this dhammas, and will let it be.

Hi Dawn... perfection is just brahmin foolishness. They tried use that as an excuse for their own mess of a caste system... where it's possible for a fool be a brahmin, and for a human being to be born untouchable... not to mention all of their messy sacrifices of animals.

Dawn, a messy room is impermanent. That is why it's possible to clean it up. This is where the real liberation lies... not the perfection of anything. Especially not the ones that are considered blamable... by the wise, like your mother for example.

The perferction of a mess is just a brahmin's foolishness. I'm glad that the Buddha debunked it, for the good of everyone.