Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby nekete » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:05 pm

Dmytro wrote:Hi Nekete,

The violence has a long history,

"In 1193, the Nalanda University complex was destroyed by Afghan Khilji-Ghilzai Muslims under Bakhtiyar Khalji; this event is seen as the final milestone in the decline of Buddhism in India."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_con ... bcontinent

The question is rather why the violence has escalated now?

This is a part of larger tragedy. Bangladesh is prone to floods, and now, with the advent of global climate change, these floods have risen to unprecedented levels.

"In 1998, over 75% of the total area of the country was flooded. It was similar to the catastrophic flood of 1988 in terms of the extent of the flooding. A combination of heavy rainfall within and outside the country and synchronization of peak flows of the major rivers contributed to the river.

The 2004 flood was very similar to the 1988 and 1998 floods with two thirds of the country under water."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floods_in_Bangladesh

Since the key countries emitting CO2 - USA and China - still don't act on this issue, the floods will get even larger, which will lead to more illegal immigration to Myanmar (which has uncontrolled border sections), and to more ethnic tensions.

:namaste:


Hi, Dmytro.

Are you saying that all this violence in Bangladesh it's because of the floods?
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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby nekete » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:07 pm

pilgrim wrote:Attacks on Buddhists are not always reported . It is not Muslims alone that attack Buddhists. There are inter-religious conflicts between Buddhists and other communities too. And with increasing population pressure and scarcity of water, land and other resources I expect this will continue if not increase. The following sites documents some of the attacks on Buddhists by Muslims and others.
http://jihadonbuddhists.org/
http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/pic1/list.html

Having said that, we should also be aware that Buddhists are not always the victims, as in Rakhine state, Myanmar where Buddhists are as much to blame.


Thanks for the links.I'll read them.
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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby Dmytro » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:03 pm

Hi Nekete,

nekete wrote:Are you saying that all this violence in Bangladesh it's because of the floods?


Floods and general climate change are a major factor of malnutrition and extreme poverty in Bangladesh.
40% of coastal land is already affected by salinity.
$10 billion were spent on defence measures over 30 years.

And the situation is getting worse. Yields from rain fed agriculture could be reduced to 50% by 2020.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_ch ... Bangladesh

In practice, this means even more illegal immigrants to Myanmar, India, and other countries, and cultural barbarization, including the escalation of violence.
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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:41 pm

Dmytro wrote:Hi Nekete,

nekete wrote:Are you saying that all this violence in Bangladesh it's because of the floods?


Floods and general climate change are a major factor of malnutrition and extreme poverty in Bangladesh.
40% of coastal land is already affected by salinity.
$10 billion were spent on defence measures over 30 years.

And the situation is getting worse. Yields from rain fed agriculture could be reduced to 50% by 2020.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_ch ... Bangladesh

In practice, this means even more illegal immigrants to Myanmar, India, and other countries, and cultural barbarization, including the escalation of violence.
Now, you are starting to make an actual argument here. What evidence can you point to that supports that this is what is behind the more recent violence in Burma?
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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby Mr Man » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:25 pm

Dmytro wrote:
In practice, this means even more illegal immigrants to Myanmar, India, and other countries, and cultural barbarization, including the escalation of violence.


Even more than what? In recent times has there been more population movement from Myanmar to it's neighboring countries or visa versa? The term "cultural barbarization" is hideous.
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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby dude » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:07 pm

"The term "cultural barbarization" is hideous."

Why? What do you think it means?
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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby Mr Man » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:40 pm

dude wrote:"The term "cultural barbarization" is hideous."

Why? What do you think it means?


Well "barbarization" means to degrade or currupt.
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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:24 pm

Very few things are more barbaric and corrupt than the idea of something called racial purity that is somehow "corrupted" or devalued by racial integration.

In the Buddha's time it was the Brahmin caste who regarded themselves as superior, and the story that I linked to earlier shows the disaster that befell the Sākyan race due to their sense of superiority over other races.

The Buddha taught that it was conduct alone that made a person noble, and that it was nothing to do with race or parentage. All wars and conflicts have their origin in the gross ignorance of human beings who consider themselves superior to others.

The Buddhist Discourse to Sakka — the King of Tāvatimsa — recorded in the Sakkapañha Sutta gives some good insights into the origin of conflicts.

As Buddhists, we should look beyond the differences between human beings that arise from race, skin colour, religion and ethnic origins. We should look for the essentials of all religions, and learn to reconcile those who are involved in conflict.
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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby cooran » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:26 pm

Sadhu, Bhante! :bow:

with metta and respect,
Chris
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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby dude » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:01 pm

Mr Man wrote:
dude wrote:"The term "cultural barbarization" is hideous."

Why? What do you think it means?


Well "barbarization" means to degrade or currupt.


Do you not think mass murder is barbarism and degrades the one who does it?
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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby Mr Man » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:24 pm

dude wrote:
Do you not think mass murder is barbarism and degrades the one who does it?

Dude your question is not relevant. Where are you trying to go with this?
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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby dude » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:26 am

never mind
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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby manas » Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:47 am

Craving

"'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. If there were no feeling at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., feeling born of contact at the eye, feeling born of contact at the ear, feeling born of contact at the nose, feeling born of contact at the tongue, feeling born of contact at the body, or feeling born of contact at the intellect — in the utter absence of feeling, from the cessation of feeling, would craving be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for craving, i.e., feeling.
Dependent on Craving

"Now, craving is dependent on feeling, seeking is dependent on craving, acquisition is dependent on seeking, ascertainment is dependent on acquisition, desire and passion is dependent on ascertainment, attachment is dependent on desire and passion, possessiveness is dependent on attachment, stinginess is dependent on possessiveness, defensiveness is dependent on stinginess, and because of defensiveness, dependent on defensiveness, various evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies.

"And this is the way to understand how it is that because of defensiveness various evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies. If there were no defensiveness at all, in any way, of anything anywhere, in the utter absence of defensiveness, from the cessation of defensiveness, would various evil, unskillful phenomena — the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies — come into play?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for the coming-into-play of various evil, unskillful phenomena — the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies — i.e., defensiveness.

"'Defensiveness is dependent on stinginess.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how defensiveness is dependent on stinginess. If there were no stinginess at all, in any way, of anything anywhere, in the utter absence of stinginess, from the cessation of stinginess, would defensiveness be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for defensiveness, i.e., stinginess.

(Similarly back through the chain of conditions: stinginess, attachment, possessiveness, desire and passion, ascertainment, acquisition, and seeking.)

"'Seeking is dependent on craving.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how seeking is dependent on craving. If there were no craving at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for no becoming — in the utter absence of craving, from the cessation of craving, would seeking be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for seeking, i.e., craving. Thus, Ananda, these two phenomena [the chain of conditions leading from craving to birth, aging, and death, and the chain of conditions leading from craving to quarrels, etc.], as a duality, flow back into one place at feeling.


This section of the Maha-nidana sutta occurred to me today. I take from this that, when one traces the causes back to their root, that it all comes back to craving. How sad that at present, in so many places across the world, there is so much fighting and killing going on, and all ultimately because of ignorance of what is really going on in these minds of ours.

Those of us fortunate enough to be living in a land relatively conflict free - let's put forth even more effort towards seeing the dhamma, so that here - in this mind right here - ignorance may be obliterated by insight, for good.

:anjali:
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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby dude » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:19 pm

"Those of us fortunate enough to be living in a land relatively conflict free -"

what land is that?
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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby Kusala » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:16 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Very few things are more barbaric and corrupt than the idea of something called racial purity that is somehow "corrupted" or devalued by racial integration.

In the Buddha's time it was the Brahmin caste who regarded themselves as superior, and the story that I linked to earlier shows the disaster that befell the Sākyan race due to their sense of superiority over other races.

The Buddha taught that it was conduct alone that made a person noble, and that it was nothing to do with race or parentage. All wars and conflicts have their origin in the gross ignorance of human beings who consider themselves superior to others.

The Buddhist Discourse to Sakka — the King of Tāvatimsa — recorded in the Sakkapañha Sutta gives some good insights into the origin of conflicts.

As Buddhists, we should look beyond the differences between human beings that arise from race, skin colour, religion and ethnic origins. We should look for the essentials of all religions, and learn to reconcile those who are involved in conflict.


Well said, Bhikkhu Pesala. We should all take heed of Emperor Ashoka's advice.

“One should not honour one's own religion and condemn the religions of others, but one should honour other's religions for this or that reason. So doing, one help's one's own religion to grow and render service to the religions of others too. In acting otherwise one digs the grace of one's own religion and does harm to other religions.

Whosoever honours his own religion and condemns other religions, does so indeed through devotion to his own religion, thinking 'I will glorify my own religion'. But on the contrary, in so he injures his own religion more gravely. So concord is good: Let all listen, and be willing to listen to the doctrines professed by others.”

Emperor Ashoka
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Homage to the Buddha
Thus indeed, is that Blessed One: He is the Holy One, fully enlightened, endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct, sublime, the Knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.

Homage to the Teachings
The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and now; not delayed in
time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.
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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby manas » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:26 am

dude wrote:"Those of us fortunate enough to be living in a land relatively conflict free -"

what land is that?


Greetings dude,

by that, I refer to 'countries where there is enough peace in general that one can access enough calm in meditation for higher spiritual development' or something to that effect. (I don't have much time, am on a public pc here, as I don't have a computer at home).

So just quickly: if I were living in Syria, for example, I would have too much anxiety to meditate properly ( by which I mean, with the mind sufficiently calmed for the development of insight). The near-constant anxiety of 'will a bomb fall on our home, killing me and/or my dear children?' or 'will the government (or rebels) break down the door, come storming in, and arrest me, or my brother / father, and/or shoot us? Or possibly take us away, detain and torture us? etc etc. - these kinds of very real issues would weigh too much on my mind for me to enter into samadhi or near-samadhi states, etc.

By way of comparison, in the country in which I currently live (Australia) I can shut the door, and, with a reasonable expectation of my children not being under any imminent threat (any more than life always offers everywhere, that is), I can sit down quietly and calm the mind sufficently so that insight can be cultivated. As far as I know, neither the government nor a band of rebels are likely to come and break down my door today. Most likely, no bomb will fall on my house today. Most likely, I will not have to worry about bullets whizzing past me while I'm out doing walking meditation.That's what I meant by 'relatively conflict-free'. It is very difficult to practice some kinds of meditation in a war zone. Maybe not impossible, but very difficult, and as I understand it, not possible for most of us ordinary folks.

I hope that clarifies what I meant.

kind regards
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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby dude » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:16 pm

[by that, I refer to 'countries where there is enough peace in general that one can access enough calm in meditation

Yes, I see what you mean now. The Buddha said we are fortunate enough to be born as human beings and not in the realm of animals, hell, or angry spirits. I might add having got that far some of us are even more fortunate to be able to live LIKE human beings. For too many people life in this world is a living hell so filled with pain it's hard to imagine what could be worse, or a struggle for bare survival like an animal, with no time for relaxation, much less reflection and contemplation. Those of us with such advantages have responsibility to ourselves and all who are suffering more than we are to "work out our own liberation with diligence."
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Re: Buddhists are being killed in Myanmar.

Postby hermitwin » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:43 pm

1st the case in southern thailand.
the southern provinces were part of the malay peninsular.
the people are ethnic malays and muslims.
they were ceded by the then colonial power, british empire
to thailand in an agreement in 1800s.
as the people had no say in the matter, they had always resisted
thai rule.
if thailand can give them meaningful autonomy, there could be
peace there.
the killings occur on both sides.

rohingyas in burma.
rohingyas are muslims. they have been living in burma for a few
hundred years. ethnically, they are similar to bangladeshis.
that part of burma is home to another ethnic group, the rakhines who are buddhists.
the rohingyas are being persecuted and being driven out of burma.
the burmese govt is partly to be blamed for not acting fairly in sorting out
ethnic conflicts. the burmese govt likes to 'divide n rule' ie
keep the different ethnic groups fighting with each other.
thousands of rohingyas are now refugees in neighbouring countries
where they are not welcomed.
as the rohingyas are being persecuted in burma, it is easy
to see why in bangladesh, the muslims retaliate by killing the buddhists.
in the case of burma, the buddhists, rakhines are the perpetrators
not the victims.
as can be seen from both cases, the conflicts are less about religion but
more about ethnic strife and political rights.
if the muslims practice 'the religion of peace' and
buddhists practise non-violence, they would not be killing
each other.
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