Did the Buddha Know Pali?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:22 am
Did the Buddha know Pali?
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If what you say is true, the claim that the Pali "Canon" preserves the words of the Buddha can't be true and phrases like, "The words of the Buddha have been preserved to this day in the Pali Canon"; or "the Buddha said in his own Pali words"; or "the Buddha defines x word/words in the Pali Canon as..." are meaningless or at least of low utility?polarbuddha101 wrote:There have been quite a few threads about this. From what I've gathered the Buddha did not speak Pali, rather he spoke some number of dialects very similar to pali and those dialects were brought together and became pali during the memorization and compilation of the suttas.
Do a search for Magadhi.danieLion wrote:
I'd be interested to see those other threads if anyone knows where to find them.
The Buddha's teachings have been preserved in the pali canon, not his word for word discussions and discourses. It's pretty obvious too when you see all those stock passages that are found word for word in hundreds of suttas. For example that stock passage that occurs often at the end of suttas where someone listening to the buddha proclaims "it is like a stone was upturned and you set it straight, you proclaimed the dhamma through many lines of reasoning, I know go to the blessed one, dhamma, sangha as a lay follower for life" (that is a rough paraphrase).danieLion wrote:If what you say is true, the claim that the Pali "Canon" preserves the words of the Buddha can't be true and phrases like, "The words of the Buddha have been preserved to this day in the Pali Canon"; or "the Buddha said in his own Pali words"; or "the Buddha defines x word/words in the Pali Canon as..." are meaningless or at least of low utility?polarbuddha101 wrote:There have been quite a few threads about this. From what I've gathered the Buddha did not speak Pali, rather he spoke some number of dialects very similar to pali and those dialects were brought together and became pali during the memorization and compilation of the suttas.
I'd be interested to see those other threads if anyone knows where to find them.
I couldn't have wrote it better myself.polarbuddha101 wrote:...the difference between being constantly on the object due to constant remembrance and being constantly aware of the object is nearly pointless. They mean basically the same thing.
If the Buddha spoke Magadhi (and not Pali) then their's no preservation. For the preservation claim to stick we'd need a Magadhi Canon (along with other requirements).tiltbillings wrote:Do a search for Magadhi.danieLion wrote:
I'd be interested to see those other threads if anyone knows where to find them.
In a country with a continuum of several mutually understandable dialects, how many people go around speaking a number of them - except for comedians and imitation artists? If you want to convey a message or a teaching, there is no need to change dialect from one village to another like a chameleon. People will understand what you are saying anyway. Therefore I see this theory of the Buddha speaking several dialects, as one of the most stupid theories in this language debate.polarbuddha101 wrote:There have been quite a few threads about this. From what I've gathered the Buddha did not speak Pali, rather he spoke some number of dialects very similar to pali and those dialects were brought together and became pali during the memorization and compilation of the suttas.
According to the Pali commentaries, that is exactly what we have. The language that we call Pali, the Pali commentaries call "Magadhi".danieLion wrote:If the Buddha spoke Magadhi (and not Pali) then their's no preservation. For the preservation claim to stick we'd need a Magadhi Canon (along with other requirements).tiltbillings wrote:Do a search for Magadhi.danieLion wrote:
I'd be interested to see those other threads if anyone knows where to find them.
What numerical value would you (or have scholars) assigned to this probability?Kare wrote:There is, however, a high probability for the Buddha's spoken dialect being so close to written Pali that there is no meaningful sense in differentiating between those two.
Danielion wrote:If the Buddha spoke Magadhi (and not Pali) then their's no preservation. For the preservation claim to stick we'd need a Magadhi Canon (along with other requirements).
I'll take your word for that. Do you think this strengthens the preservation claim?Kare wrote:According to the Pali commentaries, that is exactly what we have. The language that we call Pali, the Pali commentaries call "Magadhi".
I do not assign any number to it. But from what I have seen of king Asoka's inscriptions and of fragments of Buddhist writings in Gandhari and other early dialects, the differences are not very large. It is rather unimportant if the Buddha pronounced a word as "kamma" or "karma".danieLion wrote:What numerical value would you (or have scholars) assigned to this probability?Kare wrote:There is, however, a high probability for the Buddha's spoken dialect being so close to written Pali that there is no meaningful sense in differentiating between those two.
In my view: Yes.danieLion wrote:Danielion wrote:If the Buddha spoke Magadhi (and not Pali) then their's no preservation. For the preservation claim to stick we'd need a Magadhi Canon (along with other requirements).I'll take your word for that. Do you think this strengthens the preservation claim?Kare wrote:According to the Pali commentaries, that is exactly what we have. The language that we call Pali, the Pali commentaries call "Magadhi".
Pali does seem to be quite close to the Jain Prakrit of the Acaranga Sutta. Do the Jains believe that Mahavira, the Buddha's contemporary, spoke Magadhi as well?Kare wrote: I do not assign any number to it. But from what I have seen of king Asoka's inscriptions and of fragments of Buddhist writings in Gandhari and other early dialects, the differences are not very large. It is rather unimportant if the Buddha pronounced a word as "kamma" or "karma".