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Re: what gets reborn

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:50 am
by SarathW
True. I agree with you. :clap:

Re: what gets reborn

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:52 am
by ground
what gets reborn
After the death of one idea aka consciousness another is born (i.e. consciousness is re-born) in the aftermath of mentally affirming the former by means of imputing a sense of this idea being more than just an idea. This may be called "perpetuation of consciousness" or "the cycle of rebirths". If affirmation ceases perpetuation ceases which may be called "end of rebirths". :sage:

Re: what gets reborn

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:57 am
by retrofuturist
:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: what gets reborn

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:18 am
by tiltbillings
retrofuturist wrote::goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
? Well, it could be clearer.

Re: what gets reborn

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:29 am
by Digity
Billymac29 wrote:If there is no self, no I , no soul.... I'm still a little wrapped up with what actually is reborn at death??????? Can anyone answer this? What might be reborn in another realm if anything?

with metta
I don't understand people's preoccupation with looking for the "what" that gets reborn. I'd counter that question with another question: Why do you think there needs to be a "what" that gets reborn in the first place? What exactly are you looking for in this "what" and why? I think when you look at this question deeply you'll see that it's really the ego doing the talking...it's trying to find something solid to plant itself into. It doesn't like the alternative idea, because it loses footing then and no longer has a firm grip.

Re: what gets reborn

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:16 am
by convivium
it's easy to have a naturalistic account of rebirth; that is, a conception of rebirth amenable to the view that consciousness arises from biological conditions (e.g. neuronal configurations) (a view held by most scientists and philosophers today). the catch is, that on this view, mental qualities of one being will have no impact on the particular life form that will be inhabited (by virtue of biological conditions i.e. worlds continuing to produce sentient organisms) after that being's death. so, the buddhist explanation of consciousness can't be biological naturalism or even lesser theories like reductionism etc. since this naturalistic view of consciousness seems the most promising, and i haven't yet heard any promising alternative explanation, i remain somewhat skeptical towards both kamma-linked rebirth and the possibility of avoiding consciousness arising in another body by way of the deathless. can someone help me out with this? do i have to resort to abhidhamma to answer these questions?

Re: what gets reborn

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:27 am
by LonesomeYogurt
convivium wrote:since this naturalistic view of consciousness seems the most promising, and i haven't yet heard any promising alternative explanation
What about a (materialist) naturalistic view of consciousness makes it the most promising explanation? Where is the evidence that consciousness is produced by the brain?

Re: what gets reborn

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:33 am
by convivium
I don't understand people's preoccupation with looking for the "what" that gets reborn. I'd counter that question with another question: Why do you think there needs to be a "what" that gets reborn in the first place? What exactly are you looking for in this "what" and why? I think when you look at this question deeply you'll see that it's really the ego doing the talking...it's trying to find something solid to plant itself into. It doesn't like the alternative idea, because it loses footing then and no longer has a firm grip.
not accepting a positive view can't really be attributed to ego-clinging. it seems more like accepting a positive view entails ego-clinging (which of course isn't always a bad thing). what kind of view is rebirth? mundane right view? it's somewhat problematic to be a practicing buddhist with the shadow of this doctrine that i can't yet rationally justify. so, that's why i'm trying to clarify it.
in the aftermath of mentally affirming the former by means of imputing a sense of this idea being more than just an idea... If affirmation ceases perpetuation ceases...
could you elaborate on these bits?

What about a (materialist) naturalistic view of consciousness makes it the most promising explanation? Where is the evidence that consciousness is produced by the brain?
first, biological naturalism doesn't necessarily entail materialism (nor necessarily dualism). my understanding is that most all the neurological findings of the past decade point in this direction. of course, we don't have conclusive understanding of the cause of consciousness in the brain. when we do, it will fit into a naturalistic framework; that is, i don't yet see any other scientific possibility.

Re: what gets reborn

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:04 pm
by gavesako
I like this metaphor:

What if the brain and nervous system relate to consciousness like the TV set to radio signals? Let's call this the nonlocal model of consciousness. If we accept the nonlocal model of consciousness provisionally, we can compare TV reception to sense perception. We can compare qualia (conscious experience) to TV images and sounds; we can compare memories to the recording function, thoughts to the playback and edit functions, and mental chatter to audiovisual noise. Furthermore, if the nervous system/brain functions as receiver/modulator of consciousness rather than its producer, it follows that consciousness is not based on the brain, but that the brain is based on consciousness. There are a number of theoretical considerations and phenomena that point in this direction. These phenomena show the limits of the current mainstream (materialistic) understanding of consciousness and provide theoretical support for the nonlocal model of consciousness.
http://www.thebigview.com/mind/nonlocal.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: what gets reborn

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:54 pm
by convivium
a) the epistemic gap in materialism, b) the absence of a neural correlate of consciousness, c) out-of-body experiences (OBEs), d) near-death experiences (NDEs), and e) the measurement problem in quantum physics.
these are all pretty weak arguments and the positive view is pretty vague. a) we are still stuck in a cartesian metaphysical vocabulary that causes this apparent problem. however, something objective (nervous system) can give rise to something subjective (consciousness) in the sense that consciousness is just a higher level property of a lower level system. in this way, consciousness (subjective, aware, qualitative experience) is a natural phenomena just like digesting food. b) neuroscientists are still working on that, but getting closer and everything is pointing in this direction c) i am skeptical about veridical OBEs and d) near death experiences due not having seen strong enough evidence. e) the collapse of the quantum packet thing is really not that strong of a view within quantum mechanics. it would entail that subjectivity/consciousness qua consciousness is a major force in the operation of the objective universe, which seems absurd.

Re: what gets reborn

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:53 am
by sarahypp
When we die, it is our mind/consciousness that travels and takes a new form... depending on the natural state of the mind at death will determine where our consciousness arises. When I say where I am referring to the which realm we will end up in.

So, when we pass away, most of the time we will be in a period of transition. This transition time is what we call the Bardo. Modern science has proven that the Bardo exists... take for example Dr Brian Weiss' book on Many lives, Many Masters... It tells a story of one of his patients that undergo past life regression. There are many voids between lives which she mentions as 'waiting'.

To know more about rebirths, we must understand the concept of reincarnation. I found this particular article about reincarnation which was taught by HHDL, Avalokiteshvara. Do have a read for further understanding. http://blog.tsemtulku.com/tsem-tulku-ri ... -lama.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: what gets reborn

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:43 am
by Aloka
sarahypp wrote: Modern science has proven that the Bardo exists... take for example Dr Brian Weiss' book on Many lives, Many Masters... It tells a story of one of his patients that undergo past life regression. There are many voids between lives which she mentions as 'waiting'.
As far as I know, Brian Weiss isn't a buddhist or a scientist. He's an American psychiatrist who writes books about reincarnation and appears on TV and radio chat shows in the USA.

He also: "writes about the messages received by the Ascended masters he claims to have communicated through his subjects." ....whatever that's supposed to mean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Weiss


.

Re: what gets reborn

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:45 am
by badscooter
sarahypp wrote: So, when we pass away, most of the time we will be in a period of transition. This transition time is what we call the Bardo. Modern science has proven that the Bardo exists...
I'm not sure how modern science could prove this, but it sounds interesting!

:)

Re: what gets reborn

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:48 am
by badscooter
So what is 'consciousness'.. what would be the most helpful definition?

Re: what gets reborn

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:23 pm
by equilibrium
Billymac29 wrote:So what is 'consciousness'.. what would be the most helpful definition?
Close your eyes.....lift up you right hand and slap your face!.....do it!.....by doing it, one experience it not by words (through eyes) but by actual experience.....in the mind! (consciousness).

On the subject of what gets reborn:
Just take a look at a mirror.....it is right there in front of you.
There are 3 important issues here to be understood: (seen, unseen and unknown)
1. The face/body image: This is the physical (form).....if you are ready, you will know there is more than this.....
2. Say one is blind and cannot see the face/body image: one will have consciousness (formless) and is aware of the face/body.

The above show 2 things: The form (physical face/body) and the formless (consciousness).....They exist together just like day and night, they both depend on the other.....as one! Cannot be seperated until time is up (if there is such a thing as time).....meaning conditioned to exist!
The REAL understanding here is what this means.....EFFECT!
Now an effect cannot happen without a CAUSE!.....so this is the bit we need to understand deeply.....which leads to 3.

3. The unknown element is the consciousness (mind of the current body) itself floating around earth!.....deluded being!.....wondering!.....does not know!
The MIND is the driver of the body so if the mind does not know, it cannot escape samsara!.....hence we have the effects (the mind/body).
If one is ready, one will be able to realize emptiness of the mind/body.....now this is the most important bit, this realization can only happen in the mind (consciousness).....then and only then and not any moments before (and it cannot be achieved by speculation), one will realize this knowing!.....this removes the deluded self (ignorance).....which has been at it for all those lives.

edit: Anything beyond death is not a requirement for escaping samsara.....make this your main task in hand. To know consciousness is to comprehend when one is ready.