jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Cittasanto
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Cittasanto »

lojong1 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:sure, it is a formless attainment, which in the Buddhist scheme stems from the fourth Jhana.
I'm not convinced of this either, even though it is often mentioned after the jhanas. The stock phrase "having attained [4th jhana]" never connects them as far as I've seen, then the whole childhood tree sit and Alara Kalama dealy, and weren't there some Transcendental Meditators who thought they were skipping straight to the formless?...
hi Lojong,
Can you show one instance the formless attainments are treated separately?
I ask because I can not think of any case of this happening.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Cittasanto »

alan... wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
alan... wrote: i think you guys are debating something that you both agree on. citta said something about alara using jhana, dave just made roughly the same point, citta agrees but didn't quite get what dave was getting at, dave gets citta and so on.

alara taught jhana, citta agrees on this and so does dave.
not debating but doubt we are agreeing bearing this in mind
daverupa wrote:The four jhanas and formless attainments are unrelated. One can attain jhana, and not the formless attainments. One can attain the formless attainments, and not jhana.
oh okay lol. i didn't see that and thought this was an odd misunderstanding.
I wouldn't of asked if that wasn't there and would of understood it the way you did if it wasn't.

EDIT=
plus there was this also
sphere of nothingness =/= jhana
the =/= is a representation of the ≠ meaning (in mathmatics) not equal too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equals_sign#Not_equal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
daverupa
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by daverupa »

Cittasanto wrote:Can you show one instance the formless attainments are treated separately?
One occasion is MN 121. Another is MN 106.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by lojong1 »

Cittasanto wrote:Can you show one instance the formless attainments are treated separately?
I'm looking. mettam sutta has lots of weaselly ors, but concentration-enlightenment-factor replaces explicit jhana.

maha-nidana sutta relates infinite space to stations of consciousness, and any link between these beings and jhana is hidden from me right now.
"There are beings who,with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of space."

Ananda Sutta
Here's what I was looking for -- straight into infinite space.
"[Ananda:] "There is the case where, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form,[...] one enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space."

uh-oh! This translation of Vihara Sutta says the 9 attainments are "step-by-step."

I'll keep looking.
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mirco
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by mirco »

alan... wrote:i read an article about pre buddhist jhana but it doesn't specify whether or not this practice continued into hinduism or if it did, how it was/is regarded. at least not that i saw, i skimmed some and did a couple of ctrl+f word searches for words like "hinduism", "vedas" and so on. it talks about a group called "Parama-diṭṭhadhamma-nibbānavāda" or perhaps this is a person? i'm not clear on that and a web search was fruitless. does anyone know more of the details on this or have any opinions?
Maybe this is of interest for you:

Biswadeb Mukherjee:
A Pre-Buddhist Meditation System and its Early Modifications by Gotama the Boddhisattva -> go "Articles"

(-: Regards
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Cittasanto »

daverupa wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Can you show one instance the formless attainments are treated separately?
One occasion is MN 121. Another is MN 106.
Thank-you
MN121 does mention "attends to the singleness based on the perception of earth" which would suggest the Jhana factor, and maybe the origin of the Earth Nimita. but I will point you to
MN137 wrote:"There is equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity; and there is equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness.

"And what is equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity? There is equanimity with regard to forms, equanimity with regard to sounds...smells...tastes...tactile sensations [& ideas: this word appears in one of the recensions]. This is equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity.
I would argue here that this singleness is not equivalent between the two, as there are other describers, but refers to the jhana factor and the multiplicity of MN137 {Edit=}which does have some support in
AN9.42 wrote:"Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space.
}

MN106 talks about the mind being immeasurable, & well developed. immeasurable always refers to the Brahmaviharas and well developed would refer to the practice of them. This too is able to reach Jhana, but I do not know of an instance where the suttas are explicit here. so although I do not agree that this is an instance I can not show otherwise.
{Edit = although do see footnote 1
Although the initial description does suggest that the hindrances have been overcome which does suggest Jhana itself, but the alternative to the imperturbable (which can refer to the fourth Jhana as some of the inline notes and footnotes mention) of being commited to discernment seams to sugest Vippasana practice which is often Yoked together with Jhana within the sutta}
Last edited by Cittasanto on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by lojong1 »

lojong1 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:...formless attainment...stems from the fourth Jhana.
I'm not convinced of this...
Pancala Sutta says the formless stems from the 4th; another obstacle to the neat and easy.
Devastating.
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Cittasanto »

I realise that I didn't quite grasp what you were saying in the second reply so this responce does not matter please delete mods TY
Last edited by Cittasanto on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Cittasanto »

lojong1 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Can you show one instance the formless attainments are treated separately?
I'm looking. mettam sutta has lots of weaselly ors, but concentration-enlightenment-factor replaces explicit jhana.
see footnote 4 also.
maha-nidana sutta relates infinite space to stations of consciousness, and any link between these beings and jhana is hidden from me right now.
"There are beings who,with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of space."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ananda Sutta
Here's what I was looking for -- straight into infinite space.
"[Ananda:] "There is the case where, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form,[...] one enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space."
I disagree as although it is not outright it does infer some practice before that where one is "percipient" and the next Q which has the answer involving the infinitude of space is telling also.
uh-oh! This translation of Vihara Sutta says the 9 attainments are "step-by-step."
that doesn't mean they always have to be percieved as step by step. I think it was Ajahn Thanisaro who has a transcribed talk about this but could not find it???
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Does not one have to attain the first four jhanas before moving on to the second four?
The four jhanas and formless attainments are unrelated. One can attain jhana, and not the formless attainments. One can attain the formless attainments, and not jhana.
The suttas support that?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by Polar Bear »

tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Does not one have to attain the first four jhanas before moving on to the second four?
The four jhanas and formless attainments are unrelated. One can attain jhana, and not the formless attainments. One can attain the formless attainments, and not jhana.
The suttas support that?
I think they do.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think the lesser discourse on emptiness shows how the formless attainments can be learned without going through the jhanas first. Seems pretty clear to me.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why would the Buddha recall entering the first jhana as a child and then realize that jhana was the way to awakening if he had already used the 4 jhanas under Alara Kalama and Ramaputta to get to the dimensions of nothingness and neither perception nor non-perception just years before his awakening?
Last edited by Polar Bear on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by equilibrium »

tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Does not one have to attain the first four jhanas before moving on to the second four?
The four jhanas and formless attainments are unrelated. One can attain jhana, and not the formless attainments. One can attain the formless attainments, and not jhana.
The suttas support that?
IMPOSSIBLE!
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by daverupa »

tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Does not one have to attain the first four jhanas before moving on to the second four?
The four jhanas and formless attainments are unrelated. One can attain jhana, and not the formless attainments. One can attain the formless attainments, and not jhana.
The suttas support that?
It's an inductive claim; I will indicate some general themes:

-formless attainments are an add-on to the 4-jhana pericope, which was the original formulation in the earlier part of Nikaya creation. definitions of sammasamadhi reflect this, along with the fourth jhana being repeatedly cited as the foundation for tevijja, with the four-then-five formless attainments quickly appearing during Nikaya creation. the tradition remembers they are optional.

-the ninth formless attainment appears to be from a rather late stage in this process, and a developmental progression can be discerned in its formulation.

-the two teachers the Bodhisatta studied under taught (versions of) two of the four formless attainments, so this sort of bhavana was known in the bahmana-samana milieu. the Upanisads had their own bhavana methods, and the formless attainments are good candidates for being related methods, perhaps even explicit examples.

-bahmana-samana converts would have been very conversant with these formless methods and their theories & cosmologies. this utterly permeates the worldview of the compiler-reciters; it is not original, but it is pervasive.

-the Bodhisatta recalled his earlier experience, not something learned from another, when introducing jhana. later, the Buddha emphasizes "do jhana" because this is what allows for the destruction of the asavas. the formless attainments cannot do this.

&c.

FWIW
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
SarathW
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by SarathW »

Hi Alan
I was doing lot of Nifty (experimental) things and got nifty experience in the past.
Though I was born as a Buddhist I did not have any clue for real teaching for a long time.
So I spent lot of time learning Christianity, Hinduism , Islam, Judaism and many more.
I think they all help me to put the things in perspective.
Now I know where all these thing fits together.
Remember Buddha also did lot of nifty things before his enlightenment.
The Hinduism link I used was:
http://www.hinduism.co.za/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PS:Please do not waste lot of your time as I did! :)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
alan...
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Re: jhana pre buddhist, hinduism today and so on.

Post by alan... »

SarathW wrote:Hi Alan
I was doing lot of Nifty (experimental) things and got nifty experience in the past.
Though I was born as a Buddhist I did not have any clue for real teaching for a long time.
So I spent lot of time learning Christianity, Hinduism , Islam, Judaism and many more.
I think they all help me to put the things in perspective.
Now I know where all these thing fits together.
Remember Buddha also did lot of nifty things before his enlightenment.
The Hinduism link I used was:
http://www.hinduism.co.za/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PS:Please do not waste lot of your time as I did! :)
good advice thanks. seems to me that jhana is a magnifying glass. without the right stuff underneath it won't help reach dhammmic goals. but with all the right info and contemplations and other prerequisites suddenly everything comes into focus when you enter jhana. i have no intention of goofing around with the jhanas, i was mainly just curious about their uses in other traditions and specifically who the group(s) were that used them before the buddha.
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