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The situation can, at best, encompass the chance that first jhana is something others might have experienced. Now, that this is the only jhana with piti-sukha born of seclusion, not samadhi, and with vitakka-vicara, not without, lends support to the idea that first jhana stands apart in this way.Mr Man wrote:Dave but do you think the rose-apple situation was unique to the young prince and not an experience that many people would have shared? The significance/usefulness was only realized in retrospect.
Actually, let us check out this text:daverupa wrote:tiltbillings wrote:You might start with the image of the Buddha, and if you are able to produce a radiant vision of the Buddha, you can move on to Vishnu or Zeus, and that sort of thing.
So... well, let's check the texts:
95. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? Because, good sir, sense pleasures are impermanent, suffering, subject to change, and through their change and transformation there arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair. But when the self, quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, enters and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by initial and sustained thought and contains the rapture and happiness born of seclusion — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way others proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.
96. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? Because that jhāna contains initial and sustained thought; therefore it is declared to be gross. But when, with the subsiding of initial and sustained thought, the self enters and abides in the second jhāna, which is accompanied by internal confidence and unification of mind, is free from initial and sustained thought, and contains the rapture and happiness born of concentration — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way others proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.
97. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? It is declared to be gross because of the mental exhilaration connected with rapture that exists there. But when, with the fading away of rapture, one abides in equanimity, mindful and clearly comprehending, and still experiencing happiness with the body, enters and abides in the third jhāna, so that the ariyans announce: "He abides happily, in equanimity and mindfulness" — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way some proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.
98. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? It is declared to be gross because a mental concern, 'Happiness,' exists there. But when, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the disappearance of previous joy and grief, one enters and abides in the fourth jhāna, which is without pleasure and pain and contains purification of mindfulness through equanimity — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way some proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.
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The first discourse of the Digha Nikayta is important enough in its content that I rather doubt that the use of the "jhana pericope" was a result of laziness or or a lack of understanding or some other flaw that would allow one to breezily brush aside the implications.The brahmins and wanderers had many & ancient formless meditations and absorptions in objects; none of this is jhana, and none of it is necessary, but it ends up getting tacked on to the jhana pericope, which leads to confusion, I think.
The point is that the jhanas, by themselves, are not sufficient for awakening, in that they can be easily subverted by one's belief systems and expectations, shaping what one might experience during jhana and after. Given that jhana experience can be very profound, such experience can give one an unshakable confidence that what has been experienced is the TRUTH. The "shamanism" I lightly suggested simply makes the point about how plastic and suggestable jhana experience can be. Within the Buddha's teachings jhana is part of a larger multifaceted context that helps one avoid the serious pitfalls, but even so one still needs to be careful, looking every gift horse in the mouth.daverupa wrote: tilt, I'm unsure how it is that DN 1 is supporting the shamanism you were talking about.
If you are suggesting that I am making fun of jhana or that I am suggesting that it is useless or that it is to be looked down upon, that certainly is not the case and I'll accept your apology, which I am sure is immediately forthcoming. Also, lighten up a bit.Alobha wrote:While I don't agree with tilt's disrespectul approach . . . @Jhana alone may not be enough, but that does not mean it's useless or a subject that can be neglected, looked down upon or made fun of.
However, that's not why he thought they would easily understand:Alobha wrote:the Buddha thought they would understand because they already achieved one of the higher jhanas.
They had attained one of two mentioned formless attainments; none of the four jhanas at all.MN 26 wrote:"Then the thought occurred to me, 'To whom should I teach the Dhamma first? Who will quickly understand this Dhamma?' Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Alara Kalama is wise, competent, intelligent. He has long had little dust in his eyes. What if I were to teach him the Dhamma first? He will quickly understand this Dhamma.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Lord, Alara Kalama died seven days ago.' And knowledge & vision arose within me: 'Alara Kalama died seven days ago.' The thought occurred to me, 'A great loss has Alara Kalama suffered. If he had heard this Dhamma, he would have quickly understood it.'
"Then the thought occurred to me, 'To whom should I teach the Dhamma first? Who will quickly understand this Dhamma?' Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Uddaka Ramaputta is wise, competent, intelligent. He has long had little dust in his eyes. What if I were to teach him the Dhamma first? He will quickly understand this Dhamma.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Lord, Uddaka Ramaputta died last night.' And knowledge & vision arose within me: 'Uddaka Ramaputta died last night.' The thought occurred to me, 'A great loss has Uddaka Ramaputta suffered. If he had heard this Dhamma, he would have quickly understood it.'
"Then the thought occurred to me, 'To whom should I teach the Dhamma first? Who will quickly understand this Dhamma?' Then the thought occurred to me, 'They were very helpful to me, the group of five monks who attended to me when I was resolute in exertion. What if I were to teach them the Dhamma first?'
And DN 1 makes the point of context within which jhana is practiced, which, again, points to the plasticity of the jhana experience.daverupa wrote: Jhana is necessary and insufficient, but notice that DN 1 discusses how it's a problem to think in terms of an existing self. The instructions for jhana which I cited earlier work to prevent this mistake.
And as we seem to agree, whatever is meant by jhana, it is the context within which it is practiced that is important.". . . the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' For when one perceives impermanence, Meghiya, the perception of not-self is established. When one perceives not-self one reaches the removal of the conceit 'I am,' which is called Nibbana here and now." U iv 1.
It depends.daverupa wrote: Starry-eyed gaga-wonder means it's probably some other thing.
Does not one have to attain the first four jhanas before moving on to the second four? Anyway the Buddha attaned what they attained and rejected it as being sufficient.daverupa wrote:
They had attained one of two mentioned formless attainments; none of the four jhanas at all.
The four jhanas and formless attainments are unrelated. One can attain jhana, and not the formless attainments. One can attain the formless attainments, and not jhana.tiltbillings wrote:Does not one have to attain the first four jhanas before moving on to the second four?
Insufficient and unnecessary, surely; but then, instead of saying "these formless attainments are insufficient, but this preceding jhana which is taught is maybe useful..." he said "this stuff is useless; maybe I should practice based on that earlier experience when I was a youth..."Anyway the Buddha attaned what they attained and rejected it as being sufficient.
Jhana, practiced as cited, puts an end to sakkayaditthi, which is a damn good start.tiltbillings wrote:It is a bit more just conceptually thinking in terms of a self. Interestingly jhana can suppress that feeling of self, but that is far from insight into the nature of self.
He taught the sphere of nothingness; and I'd not call him a teacher of the Buddha.Cittasanto wrote:I believe Alara Kalama one of the Buddhas two teachers taught Jhana. And it is at least mentioned in the Dhammawiki as being true.
I fail to see your point here.daverupa wrote:He taught the sphere of nothingness.Cittasanto wrote:I believe Alara Kalama one of the Buddhas two teachers taught Jhana. And it is at least mentioned in the Dhammawiki as being true.
sphere of nothingness =/= jhanaCittasanto wrote:I fail to see your point here.daverupa wrote:He taught the sphere of nothingness.Cittasanto wrote:I believe Alara Kalama one of the Buddhas two teachers taught Jhana. And it is at least mentioned in the Dhammawiki as being true.