No believing in God is not such a good idea.

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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby Nyana » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:30 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:It pales, Nothing whips humans into a killing frenzy faster than god and religion. Politicians will always claw their way to power, but to get people to kill each other with real zeal politicians need god.

Issues and ideologies related to nationalism and communism -- both quite godless -- were responsible for far more slaughter in the 20th century than religion.
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby polarbuddha101 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:35 pm

The real problem is attachment to views, views cover both religion and all other forms of ideology.

:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:36 pm

Cittasanto wrote:sure but you can use any ideology for that. Create a sense of self and other within the group, and you can produce the same effect, or not depending on the aim behind the ideology and how it is used.


Yes, any ideology could be used. The reason religious ideology is so often employed is that it stands ready for service, is a tried and true method to dehumanize enemies and lends moral superiority. After all, those not of god are evil and killing them is not only not a sin, but a service to god.

When they discovered, from the admissions of some of them, that there were Catholics mingled with the heretics they said to the abbot “Sir, what shall we do, for we cannot distinguish between the faithful and the heretics.” The abbot, like the others, was afraid that many, in fear of death, would pretend to be Catholics, and after their departure, would return to their heresy, and is said to have replied “Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius - Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_a ... His_own.22
"Even if you've read the whole Canon and can remember lots of teachings; even if you can explain them in poignant ways, with lots of people to respect you; even if you build a lot of monastery buildings, or can explain inconstancy, stress, and not-self in the most detailed fashion ... The only thing that serves your own true purpose is release from suffering.

"And you'll be able to gain release from suffering only when you know the one mind."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:41 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:It pales, Nothing whips humans into a killing frenzy faster than god and religion. Politicians will always claw their way to power, but to get people to kill each other with real zeal politicians need god.

Issues and ideologies related to nationalism and communism -- both quite godless -- were responsible for far more slaughter in the 20th century than religion.


If you are referring at least partly to the nazis, hitler was just the inheritor of martin luthers anti-semitism which if you read his remarks on the subject were at least partly motivated by religion. Communist regimes killed a lot of people, but my bet for sheer over all historical body count is still on religion and god. Nationalism seems to be gaining ground on the leader tho.
Last edited by m0rl0ck on Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Even if you've read the whole Canon and can remember lots of teachings; even if you can explain them in poignant ways, with lots of people to respect you; even if you build a lot of monastery buildings, or can explain inconstancy, stress, and not-self in the most detailed fashion ... The only thing that serves your own true purpose is release from suffering.

"And you'll be able to gain release from suffering only when you know the one mind."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby perkele » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:44 pm

And what's the point of all this resentment?
Those who are ashamed of what they should be ashamed of, and are not ashamed of what they should not be ashamed of -- upholding true views, they do not go to states of woe.
(suggested by SamBodhi)
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:04 pm

Hi m0rl0ck
have you ever wondered why religion tends to reflect the morality of the age? how many christian or jewish parents would stone a child to death for back chat? it is an ideology that can be interpreted to fit the views of the reader, yet it is still just an ideology. any ideology can be used as you admit and examples are given by another which have been used in just the same way without religion god...
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:10 pm

Cittasanto wrote:Hi m0rl0ck
have you ever wondered why religion tends to reflect the morality of the age?


I dont know which age you are talking about. People kill each other for god every day on this planet.
"Even if you've read the whole Canon and can remember lots of teachings; even if you can explain them in poignant ways, with lots of people to respect you; even if you build a lot of monastery buildings, or can explain inconstancy, stress, and not-self in the most detailed fashion ... The only thing that serves your own true purpose is release from suffering.

"And you'll be able to gain release from suffering only when you know the one mind."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby Nyana » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:14 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:Issues and ideologies related to nationalism and communism -- both quite godless -- were responsible for far more slaughter in the 20th century than religion.

If you are referring at least partly to the nazis, hitler was just the inheritor of martin luthers anti-semitism which if you read his remarks on the subject were at least partly motivated by religion.

Yes, well, antisemitism wasn't the cause of WW II. And of the approx. 60 million war casualties, approx. 20 million were soldiers and 40 million were civilians (and of the approx. 11 - 17 million civilians who were killed as a result of Nazi ideological policies, 6 million were Jewish).
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:17 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Hi m0rl0ck
have you ever wondered why religion tends to reflect the morality of the age?


I dont know which age you are talking about. People kill each other for god every day on this planet.

any
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby appicchato » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:03 pm

...eternal life


Bummer...
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby Kusala » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:47 am

Is God's mercy to blame for high crime rates?

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... rates.html
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Homage to the Buddha
Thus indeed, is that Blessed One: He is the Holy One, fully enlightened, endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct, sublime, the Knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.

Homage to the Teachings
The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and now; not delayed in
time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby alan » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:03 am

Belief in a "God" is certainly the dumbest and most useless idea to ever pollute the human realm.
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby ground » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:54 pm

alan wrote:Belief in a "God" is certainly the dumbest and most useless idea to ever pollute the human realm.

Don't say this. There is a great no. of people living happily due to this belief. Every religion can have - not necessarily does have - the intended effects: contentment, confidence, peace and happiness. Also the current "western" living conditions, negative and positive ones, have been conditioned by christianity. :sage:
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby nibbuti » Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:25 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:It doesn't matter too much what else you believe in or don't believe in, as long as you believe that you alone will inherit the results of volitional actions of body, speech, and thought done by yourself.

"Master Gotama, is stress self-made?"

"Don't say that, Kassapa."

"Then is it other-made?"

"Don't say that, Kassapa." ...

"'The one who acts is the one who experiences [the result of the act]' amounts to the eternalist statement, 'Existing from the very beginning, stress is self-made.'

'The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences' amounts to the annihilationist statement, 'For one existing harassed by feeling, stress is other-made.'

Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle:

From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.
From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.
From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.
From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.
From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.
From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.
From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.
From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.
From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.
From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

SN 12.17

:buddha1:
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby Buckwheat » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:42 pm

Dear Bhikkhu,

I think any follower of the Buddha can agree with the following:

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The crucial point is accepting full responsibility for one's own actions according to the teaching of Kammassakatta Sammādiṭṭhi. It doesn't matter too much what else you believe in or don't believe in, as long as you believe that you alone will inherit the results of volitional actions of body, speech, and thought done by yourself.


How do we end up then looking at a block of society and history that includes all Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and look at their actions from the exact opposite perspective? Does it really matter what a person believes, or does it matter how they act? There are countless Monotheists who have done great good in this world. They should not be lumped in with the "evil" part of their society.

What then becomes important is not the historical blame we place on religion for good/evil, but the effect it would have on my actions right now. I personally don't get much out of the God concept, though at times I flirt with the idea. But I can see how it may be used as a crutch for many people to calm many negative emotions, allowing them to do good. On the other hand, it can be used to stir up negative emotions. So it is up to the user to make sure they are doing good and not evil (to use the theist vocabulary). In the end, heaven and hell may be seen as forms of taking personal responsibility for our actions.
Disciples, this I declare to you: All conditioned things are subject to disintegration – strive on untiringly for your liberation.

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby Seeeker » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:13 pm

The reason people believe in a particular religion is because such a belief was conditioned into them at a very young age by parents, teachers, TV, etc. I recall being told repeatedly, "We are ******* and we believe in *****!" It wasn't like there was any option.

Likewise those who can escape such beliefs are probably those whose early conditioning wasn't effective/thorough enough.

I find it ludicrous to 'believe' in anything just because so and so said so.

Belief without empirical evidence is highly dubious.
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby Buckwheat » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:37 am

Seeeker wrote:The reason people believe in a particular religion is because such a belief was conditioned into them at a very young age by parents, teachers, TV, etc. I recall being told repeatedly, "We are ******* and we believe in *****!" It wasn't like there was any option.

Likewise those who can escape such beliefs are probably those whose early conditioning wasn't effective/thorough enough.


Yes, and all black people... (blah blah blah)

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Disciples, this I declare to you: All conditioned things are subject to disintegration – strive on untiringly for your liberation.

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby Jay1 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:10 pm

"The reason people believe in a particular religion is because such a belief was conditioned into them at a very young age by parents, teachers, TV, etc. I recall being told repeatedly, "We are ******* and we believe in *****!" It wasn't like there was any option."

"Belief in a "God" is certainly the dumbest and most useless idea to ever pollute the human realm."

As a Christian, the ignorance presented here is just wow. However, I'm not here to judge. I just can't, for example, see Buddha (or any great thinker) post anything close to what has been posted above. That's my observation and I'm out of here.

Peace :)
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby m0rl0ck » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:10 pm

In my view the point needs to be addressed in this thread that to practice buddhism you need not believe in a judgmental god whose main historical use seems to have been dehumanizing enemies so that they could be killed and their land and property taken.
Its no accident that the followers of the patriarchal warrior god are so numerous, the ones who sat around saying "all religions are the same, they are good people too", likely got dehumanized by the priests of the warrior god cult the next valley over and killed for their arable land.
All religions are not the same and bad ideas kill people. Whenever religious groups attain political power, slaughter usually follows. Look at the world today, representatives of two of the worlds major religions (the US is arguably a christian power) both believers in apocalypse and the patriarchal warrior god and his "final judgement" are involved in conflict that could very likely take the rest of the planet down with them.
If you seriously believe that all religions are equal and that religions cant kill en masse, you need to take a look at your attitudes, education and especially at history.
I know its not pc to say so, but some ideas are contagious and deadly mental disorders. Theism is one of those ideas.


EDIT: Just for clarity sake, when i say theism above, what i meant was patriarchal monotheism. Matriarchal theism seems to have gotten the short end of the stick from the patriarchal variety historically. Seems to be making a comeback tho, which looks like a positive development to me.

I expect this post will likely be deleted as was my last in this thread, but at least i tried :)
"Even if you've read the whole Canon and can remember lots of teachings; even if you can explain them in poignant ways, with lots of people to respect you; even if you build a lot of monastery buildings, or can explain inconstancy, stress, and not-self in the most detailed fashion ... The only thing that serves your own true purpose is release from suffering.

"And you'll be able to gain release from suffering only when you know the one mind."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: No believing in God is not such a good idea.

Postby Kusala » Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:23 am

m0rl0ck wrote:In my view the point needs to be addressed in this thread that to practice buddhism you need not believe in a judgmental god whose main historical use seems to have been dehumanizing enemies so that they could be killed and their land and property taken.
Its no accident that the followers of the patriarchal warrior god are so numerous, the ones who sat around saying "all religions are the same, they are good people too", likely got dehumanized by the priests of the warrior god cult the next valley over and killed for their arable land.
All religions are not the same and bad ideas kill people. Whenever religious groups attain political power, slaughter usually follows. Look at the world today, representatives of two of the worlds major religions (the US is arguably a christian power) both believers in apocalypse and the patriarchal warrior god and his "final judgement" are involved in conflict that could very likely take the rest of the planet down with them.
If you seriously believe that all religions are equal and that religions cant kill en masse, you need to take a look at your attitudes, education and especially at history.
I know its not pc to say so, but some ideas are contagious and deadly mental disorders. Theism is one of those ideas.


EDIT: Just for clarity sake, when i say theism above, what i meant was patriarchal monotheism. Matriarchal theism seems to have gotten the short end of the stick from the patriarchal variety historically. Seems to be making a comeback tho, which looks like a positive development to me.

I expect this post will likely be deleted as was my last in this thread, but at least i tried :)


Amen. :anjali:
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Homage to the Buddha
Thus indeed, is that Blessed One: He is the Holy One, fully enlightened, endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct, sublime, the Knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.

Homage to the Teachings
The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and now; not delayed in
time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.
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