The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:43 am

Mr man: robertk "if we feel we are having frequent moments of sati-sampajana that we are even more deluded than we first admitted." is just another leval of judgement which has been conditiomed. It is more of the same. A viewpoint has been adopted.Mr Man


Hi mr man
I think retro cited this sutta recently
Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, An Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara NikâyaTranslated and edited by Nyanaponika Thera & Bhikkhu Bodhi
Few Are Those Beings
Those who understand the meaning and the Dhamma and who practice in accordance to theDhamma are few, while those who fail to do so are many.

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:57 am

Right View is, until one become arahanta, a work in progres
even a sotapanna has completed the eradication of wrong view. And the one on the path to sotapanna is attentuating wrong view more and more.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:59 am

retrofuturist wrote:
The point I have taken out of this conversation is that "sitting on your bum" is not taught by the Buddha as a cause for the arising of wisdom.
It is what one does and does not do when one is "sitting on one's bum" that matters.

The cause of wisdom most frequently provided in the suttas appears to be the listening to, and reflecting upon the Dhamma. Then with that wisdom, meditation (i.e. right mindfulness, right concentration) is used as a means of non-appropriation and release.
Interesting, but I have yet to see anything in this thread that convincingly makes this bifurcation. While one can have a carefully structured conceptual knowledge of the Dhamma, garnered from careful reading and reflection, which is of value in making for a context for one's practice, it is in the doing that the Dhamma come alive. "Non-appropriation and release” comes with insight, seeing the conditioned co-produced rise and fall of the all..


The commonly propagated assumption that the wisdom itself comes from the doing of "meditation" is what I don't recall being substantiated once throughout this topic, but it is now 37 pages long and I do not have photographic memory so apologize if I've missed something pertinent that demonstrates that the Buddha taught this.
While the conceptual structure makes a context for the doing, it is the doing that truth of what the conceptual structures point to is realized. The conceptual structure serve no other purpose than supporting the doing. And this is seen most clearly in this most concise and profound expression of the Dhamma:

    "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." – Ud 10

It is with the doing, the sila, the bhavana, and the putting into practice the rest of the Eightfold Path, as we interact with others and as we confront the totality – the all -- of what we are that Dhamma is brought to transformative life.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:00 am

robertk wrote:ECommentary to samyutta Nikaya (note 313 ) page 809 Bodh

i"for when learning declines the practice declines, and when the practice declines achievement declines. But when learning becomes full, persons rich in learning fill up the practice, and those filling up the practice fill up achievement. Thus when learning etc are increasing my Dispensation increases just like the full moon.
This neatly supports my statements here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&p=242968#p242968 Thanks.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:03 am

robertk wrote:
Right View is, until one become arahanta, a work in progres
even a sotapanna has completed the eradication of wrong view. And the one on the path to sotapanna is attentuating wrong view more and more.
I stand corrected. I had meant to write ariya, and with that correction, my point still stands.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:05 am

robertk wrote:
Those who understand the meaning and the Dhamma and who practice in accordance to theDhamma are few, while those who fail to do so are many.
Study and practice -- doing: sila, bhavana and the rest of the Eightfold Path. Again, thanks.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:59 am

tilt:
While the conceptual structure makes a context for the doing, it is the doing that truth of what the conceptual structures point to is realized. The conceptual structure serve no other purpose than supporting the doing. And this is seen most clearly in this most concise and profound expression of the Dhamma:


"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." – Ud 10

if i remember that sutta correctly, bahiya didn't upon listening then take any particular posture, or walk faster or slower,?
doesn't it show that insight was a matter of listening to the Dhamma and applying it there and then-as in seeing the nature of reality there and then, even while listening. Thus insight is a matter of understanding of seeing , it is a mental phenomena.
the commentary says that Bahiya became an arahat by the end of that sermon.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:19 am

robertk wrote:tilt:
While the conceptual structure makes a context for the doing, it is the doing that truth of what the conceptual structures point to is realized. The conceptual structure serve no other purpose than supporting the doing. And this is seen most clearly in this most concise and profound expression of the Dhamma:


"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." – Ud 10

if i remember that sutta correctly, bahiya didn't upon listening then take any particular posture, or walk faster or slower,?
doesn't it show that insight was a matter of listening to the Dhamma and applying it there and then-as in seeing the nature of reality there and then, even while listening. Thus insight is a matter of understanding of seeing , it is a mental phenomena.
the commentary says that Bahiya became an arahat by the end of that sermon.
And the commentary also says that Bahiya was a highly experience meditator, which is what makes these instruction for him as potent as they are. He has done much of the ground already. Also, the thing is, these instructions are not just for Bahiya, which is why we have them and several other suttas that give essentially the same instructions for practice.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:25 am

in the full sutta the deva who urged Bahiya to seek out the Buddha said to him that

Then a devata who was a former blood-relation of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth understood that reflection in his mind. Being compassionate and wishing to benefit him, he approached Bahiya and said: "You, Bahiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path to arahatship. You do not follow that practice whereby you could be an arahant or enter the path to arahatship."

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:31 am

robertk wrote:in the full sutta the deva who urged Bahiya to seek out the Buddha said to him that

Then a devata who was a former blood-relation of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth understood that reflection in his mind. Being compassionate and wishing to benefit him, he approached Bahiya and said: "You, Bahiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path to arahatship. You do not follow that practice whereby you could be an arahant or enter the path to arahatship."
So? And you have appealed to the commentary. Does not the commentary state that Bahiya was a skilled meditator? Had he not already laid down the ground work by his practice? Bahiya would not have attained awakening by merely hearing the instructions without the ground work in place, unless you are arguing that causes and conditions do not matter. And also we have, as I said, a number other suttas that give essentially the same instructions.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:45 am

actually the Commentary gives the attainment of jhanas as one of the possible things that Bahiya might have attained , but doesc not state that he had definitely attained them.
it also says that he
had first heard the Dhamma a hundred thousand kalpas in the past under the
Buddha, Padumuttara and in that life had performed great meritorious
deeds. He had later gone forth’ under Buddha Kassapa .
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/24977
Even so, in the present life, when he became highly respected by people
after he was shipwrecked and wandered around with only garments made from
bark, he mistakenly assumed he was an arahant because he was treated as
one. In fact he had not achieved any level of attainment at all and was
completely misguided, deceiving those who supported him and paid him
respect. It took a visit by Grat Brahma, a former deva companion and an
anagami (non-returner)who took pity on him, to shock him to his senses.
Great Brahma tells him: “You now, though being no arahant, roam about
wearing the guise of a religious in the belief that you are an arahant.
You Bahiya are certainly no arahant. Renounce this evil resorting to views

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:51 am

robertk wrote:actually the Commentary gives the attainment of jhanas as one of the possible things that Bahiya might have attained , but doesc not state that he had definitely attained them.
That is a significant bit of ground work for the particular situation, bringing to fruition the previous conditioning already in place. But, as I have said, these instructions are not at all unknown in the suttas, and these instructions are a masterful expression of doing.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:08 am

Take the Majjhima Nikaya 138 Uddesavibhanga sutta.
The Buddha said (p1074 bodhi)"Bhikkhus a bhikkhu should examine
things in such a way that while he is examining them his
consciousness is not distracted and scattered externally nor stuck
internally.If his consciousness is not distracted and scattered
externally nor stuck internally and if by not clinging he does not
become agitated, then for him there is no origination of suffering
or birth, ageing and death in the future."

In the sutta Mahakaccana explains what the Buddha meant
by "agitation due
to clinging" (upadaya paritassana).
" Here the "uninstructed worldling" (assutava puthujjana), who
regards his five aggregates as self. When his form, or feeling, or
perception, or volitional formations, or consciousness undergoes
change and deterioration, his mind becomes preoccupied with the
change, and he becomes anxious, distressed, and concerned. Thus
there is agitation due to clinging. But the instructed noble
disciple does not regard the five aggregates as his self. Therefore,
when the aggregates undergo change and transformation, his mind is
not preoccupied with the change and he dwells free from anxiety,
agitation, and concern.""
http://www.abhidhamma.org/maha_kaccana.htm#ch5

Do we feel agitated when vinnana (consciousness) changes form what
we think it should be? Or do we see that vinnana is not self and so
develop detachment from the idea of a self who is controlling
vinnana.
Before the buddha taught about conditionality and anatta, sages
understood that objects through the sense doors condition craving.
And so they developed jhanas, very difficult to do so, so that all
contact at the 5 doors ceased. But the path of the Buddha not the
stopping of contact, rather it is insight into the six doors.
So I think we become less concerned about what the object is, and
whether there is akusala or akusala, and the focus changes to the
anattaness and conditionality of the moment.
This doesn't rule out developing samatha or other ways of kusala,
but I think it is helpful to see the difference.

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Dan74
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Dan74 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:39 am

I am kind of amazed this thread is still going...

On the one hand if one rejects the importance of meditation and other formal practice, one rejects much of the best of today's Theravada, like the Thai Forest, Mahasi and Ledi Sayadaw and followers, etc.

While one may want to discuss weaknesses of their approaches (and every approach has weaknesses and pitfalls) to reject it wholesale would be absurd, is that not so?

On the other hand, it is not controversial that formal practice is somewhat artificial at the outset. There is craving present, spiritual materialism of some sort, if you will, and conceit about progress is bound to creep in at some stage. This has been recognized for 2500 years I think and there are antidotes for this. That's why having regular contact with a good teacher can be so valuable.

Finally when the view is perfected, every moment of life is practice, and even before the perfect Right View, we learn to apply the Dhamma to difficult situations in life, to the cravings and aversions, to laziness and excitability, to fears and desires, we learn to see their transience and their illusory nature.In my experience I am sometimes able to do that thanks to the time spent on the cushion, where we learn to pay attention and let go.

Right from the outset, I was taught to take whatever happens on the cushion into the rest of my life and to live my life in accordance with sila which is the foundation of cushion practice.

Except in a few exceptional cases I am doubtful that learning can replace meditation. In fact after so many debates and arguments between scholars and meditators across centuries, isn't it time to put this old saw to rest and accept that the Dhamma practice includes both?
_/|\_

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Alex123
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:46 am

Dear Dhamma Follower,

dhamma follower wrote:The issue is not whether there's a choice in the conventional sense or not, but to understand that the choice is also conditioned, not "I", me, or mine. Do you agree that choice is conditioned?


Is it possible that conventional meditation practice (including Jhāna) can bring one to a situation of insight where anatta will be seen, after which one's wisdom will be developed much more?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:22 pm

dhamma follower wrote:What we have been trying to show, is that, regardless what one choose to do, it is not the doing, but the right understanding which can be said to cultivate the Path.

"doing" is kamma. Right effort is kamma.
The second section focuses on the Buddha's basic observation that underlay his teachings on kamma: that it is possible to develop a skill. This simple fact carries a number of important implications for any teaching on action. (1) Actions give results, and their results follow a discernible pattern. Otherwise, it would not be possible to develop a skill. (2) Some results are more desirable than others. Otherwise, there would be no point in developing a skill. (3) By observing one's mistakes one may learn from them and use that knowledge to act more skillfully in the future. This means that the mind is a crucial agent in determining actions and their results, and there is an opening for feedback to influence the process of action. It is thus a non-linear process, and there is room for free will. (4) Results can be observed while one is acting, as well as after the action is done. This means that actions have both immediate results and long-term results, a fact that makes the non-linear process very complex.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... illfulness
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:37 am

Dan74 wrote:On the other hand, it is not controversial that formal practice is somewhat artificial at the outset. There is craving present, spiritual materialism of some sort, if you will, and conceit about progress is bound to creep in at some stage. This has been recognized for 2500 years I think and there are antidotes for this. That's why having regular contact with a good teacher can be so valuable.

See this post for a link to Ajahn Brahm sounding like Khun Sujin, banging on about cause and effect, lack of control, and the importance of hearing the Dhamma:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=17013&p=243109#p243109

:anjali:
Mike

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Alex123
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:35 am

mikenz66 wrote:See this post for a link to Ajahn Brahm sounding like Khun Sujin, banging on about cause and effect, lack of control, and the importance of hearing the Dhamma:


But the difference is that Ajahn Brahm actually teaches Jhāna and insight based on it. He doesn't teach to: live normal life, read a bit of Abhidhamma, and hope that somehow aeons in the future, satipaṭṭhāna will come like a knight in shining armor and rescue one.

P.S.
I find Ajahn Brahm to be very inspirational.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:32 pm

Alex123 wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:See this post for a link to Ajahn Brahm sounding like Khun Sujin, banging on about cause and effect, lack of control, and the importance of hearing the Dhamma:


But the difference is that Ajahn Brahm actually teaches Jhāna and insight based on it. He doesn't teach to: live normal life, read a bit of Abhidhamma, and hope that somehow aeons in the future, satipaṭṭhāna will come like a knight in shining armor and rescue one.

Yes, based on causes and conditions. :tongue:

Anyway, my point was that there is nothing special (in Buddhist circles) about pointing out that all actions are dependent on causes and conditions and that you can't will yourself into satipatthana, jhana, or awakening.

:anjali:
Mike

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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:39 pm

And here's another example, from Ajahn Amaro:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5195&start=100#p218121

:anjali:
Mike


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