The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5603
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

this is from a post by venerable dhammanando, which is relevant to the earlier discussion about Nina's interview::


http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 3&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“Human dhammas” (manussa-dhammā) means the ten wholesome courses of action. Any wholesome states that are superior to the ten wholesome courses of action are “superhuman dhammas” (uttarimanussa-dhammā). In the Vinaya Piṭaka these are defined deictically as:

“Uttarimanussadhammo” — nāma jhānaṃ vimokkho samādhi samāpatti ñāṇadassanaṃ maggabhāvanā phalasacchikiriyā kilesappahānaṃ vinīvaraṇatā cittassa suññāgāre abhirati.

A super-human state: jhāna, release, samādhi, attainment, knowledge and insight, development of the path, realisation of the fruits, abandoning the defilements, a mind without hindrances, delighting in solitude.

tiltbillings wrote:
On what basis do you claim that it is rare
?


It would appear that even the human dhammas are rare, for if they were common it would not be the case (as the suttas say it is) that the overwhelming majority of humans are headed for rebirth in the lower realms. How much rarer, then, are the superhuman dhammas.

As for the rarity of jhāna in particular:

Now, the kasiṇa preliminary work is difficult for a beginner and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. The arousing of the sign is difficult for one who has done the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. To extend the sign when it has arisen and to reach absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. To tame one’s mind in the fourteen ways after reaching absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it.
(Path of Purification, ch. XII)


So if this is correct, then the jhāna-attainment rate of those who attempt samatha-bhāvanā will range from one in a million to one in a thousand million, while the jhāna-mastery rate will range from one in a hundred million to one in a trillion.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:this is from a post by venerable dhammanando, which is relevant to the earlier discussion about Nina's interview::


http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 3&start=20“Human dhammas” (manussa-dhammā) means the ten wholesome courses of action. Any wholesome states that are superior to the ten wholesome courses of action are “superhuman dhammas” (uttarimanussa-dhammā). In the Vinaya Piṭaka these are defined deictically as:

“Uttarimanussadhammo” — nāma jhānaṃ vimokkho samādhi samāpatti ñāṇadassanaṃ maggabhāvanā phalasacchikiriyā kilesappahānaṃ vinīvaraṇatā cittassa suññāgāre abhirati.

A super-human state: jhāna, release, samādhi, attainment, knowledge and insight, development of the path, realisation of the fruits, abandoning the defilements, a mind without hindrances, delighting in solitude.

tiltbillings wrote:
On what basis do you claim that it is rare
?


It would appear that even the human dhammas are rare, for if they were common it would not be the case (as the suttas say it is) that the overwhelming majority of humans are headed for rebirth in the lower realms. How much rarer, then, are the superhuman dhammas.

As for the rarity of jhāna in particular:

Now, the kasiṇa preliminary work is difficult for a beginner and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. The arousing of the sign is difficult for one who has done the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. To extend the sign when it has arisen and to reach absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. To tame one’s mind in the fourteen ways after reaching absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it.
(Path of Purification, ch. XII)


So if this is correct, then the jhāna-attainment rate of those who attempt samatha-bhāvanā will range from one in a million to one in a thousand million, while the jhāna-mastery rate will range from one in a hundred million to one in a trillion.
Jhana is probably not as rare as is often thought to be, given that there are those who teach and experience jhana as described by the Visuddhimagga and the suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Ajahn Jayasaro The cultivation of the conditions for the arising of wisdom:

Image
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6490
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Dhammanando »

tiltbillings wrote:Ajahn Jayasaro The cultivation of the conditions for the arising of wisdom:

Image
Do you have a more precise link? This one leads only to a Facebook group, not to any particular talk or article.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Dhammanando wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Ajahn Jayasaro The cultivation of the conditions for the arising of wisdom:

Image
Do you have a more precise link? This one leads only to a Facebook group, not to any particular talk or article.
It is just a posting on FB. Right now it should be right on or close to the top of the linked page. The above thingie also shows up in the photos.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Tilt,

Do you mean this?

https://www.facebook.com/buddhistfellow ... =3&theater" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Meditation is like rubbing two sticks together to make fire.

You need a lot of patience to be successful, and you need consistency and continuity.

Perhaps you start with great enthusiasm,
but that won't last.

If, when you start to feel tired or bored or discouraged,
please understand that you can't just stop for a while,
for a few days or weeks, and then just carry on.

The two sticks will be cold and you will have to start again.

So even if you only do a little everyday, never mind.
What is important is that you don't stop.

~ Ajahn Jayasaro ~
:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5603
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

image.jpg
image.jpg (458.17 KiB) Viewed 3555 times
An interesting page from the book retro recommended by steven harrison
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5603
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

image.jpg
image.jpg (438.25 KiB) Viewed 3551 times
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

The above cuttings from Harrison's book look to be taken out of their broader contexts, and what they interestingly suggests, as presented here, is that one can fail at meditation, and drastically so. Failure at meditation does, indeed, happen, all too often. What I have seen frequently with such failures are subsequent attacks on meditation, either in a generalized manner or in terms of specific technique, as we have seen graphically illustrated in this thread. However, in going through Harrison book, which is not actually an anti-meditation screed, we do see why some of the failures happen, and we do see what he is offering as correctives.

Interestingly the OP of this thread is essentially a basis for a criticism of a meditation practice in general, but sadly as the thread unfolds, the criticism is not based upon a careful understanding of what is being criticized.

Certainly, meditation practice, either in a generalized sense, or specific techniques can be, should be, open to criticism, but ideally these criticism need to be done from a place of actually understanding what is being criticized.
robertk wrote:
image.jpg
An interesting page from the book retro recommended by steven harrison
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Cormac Brown
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:10 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Cormac Brown »

This from early on:
robertK wrote:But if one thought that 'Oh, here is desire I must remove it', then
one is no longer following the path toward vipassana.
Compare with MN 19:
Whenever thinking imbued with sensuality had arisen, I simply abandoned it, dispelled it, wiped it out of existence.


The Buddha recommends a similar approach to thoughts connected with sensual desire in other suttas, too.

Can we all take more care over the amount of authority we give your own opinions on the Dhamma? If it's not from a sutta, it's not the Dhamma. A large number of suttas are available for free online. We would do better to read them more carefully and use them to inform what we say.

Remember that one of the causes for wrong view is the voice of another. Bhikkhus aside, every single one of us has defilements, and it's most likely that our opinions are based on those, not Dhamma.
“I in the present who am a worthy one, rightly self-awakened, am a
teacher of action, a teacher of activity, a teacher of persistence. But the
worthless man Makkhali contradicts even me, (saying,) ‘There is no
action. There is no activity. There is no persistence.’ "
AN 3.138, trans. Ven. Thanissaro
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

Cormac Brown wrote:If it's not from a sutta, it's not the Dhamma.
Hi Cormac Brown
Do you have sutta support for your view?
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6490
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Dhammanando »

Cormac Brown wrote:This from early on:
robertK wrote:But if one thought that 'Oh, here is desire I must remove it', then
one is no longer following the path toward vipassana.
Compare with MN 19:
Whenever thinking imbued with sensuality had arisen, I simply abandoned it, dispelled it, wiped it out of existence.
The Majjhima-ṭīkā takes your quotation from the Dvedhāvitakka Sutta to be a description of what the Nettippakaraṇa calls “abandoning by suppression through the power of reflection” (paṭisaṅkhāna-balena vikkhambhana-pahāna). This is a feature of the development of calm /samatha.

Robert, on the other hand, was speaking of the development of insight /vipassanā.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
Cormac Brown
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:10 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Cormac Brown »

Mr Man wrote:
Cormac Brown wrote:If it's not from a sutta, it's not the Dhamma.
Hi Cormac Brown
Do you have sutta support for your view?
My apologies, perhaps I made this comment too rashly. I'm quite hot-tempered. I will try to take more care in future to express myself in a more considerate manner.

Ani Sutta states that we should listen to the words of the Tathagata first and foremost. I take the words of the Tathagata to be the Dhamma.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“I in the present who am a worthy one, rightly self-awakened, am a
teacher of action, a teacher of activity, a teacher of persistence. But the
worthless man Makkhali contradicts even me, (saying,) ‘There is no
action. There is no activity. There is no persistence.’ "
AN 3.138, trans. Ven. Thanissaro
perkele
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by perkele »

Mr Man wrote:
Cormack Brown wrote:If it's not from a sutta, it's not the Dhamma.
Hi Cormac Brown
Do you have sutta support for your view?
I suppose Cormack was relying on the Buddha's utterance in the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta:
DN 16: Mahāparinibbāna Sutta - The Great Passing, The Buddha's Last Days (Walshe trans.) wrote:'Suppose a monk were to say: "Friends, I heard and received this from the Lord's own lips: this is the Dhamma, this is the discipline, this is the Master's teaching", then, monks, you should neither approve nor disapprove his words. Then, without approving or disapproving, his words and ex­pressions should be carefully noted and compared with the Suttas and reviewed in the light of the discipline. If they, on such comparison and review, are found not to conform to the Suttas or the discipline, the conclusion must be: "Assuredly this is not the word of the Buddha, it has been wrongly un­derstood by this monk", and the matter is to be rejected. But where on such comparison and review they are found to con­form to the Suttas or the discipline, the conclusion must be: "Assuredly this is the word of the Buddha, it has been rightly understood by this monk."
For sure, you are familiar with this.

But, yes, it seems context is important:
robertk wrote:Or if i have desire arising, as we all do very often - can it be known as
desire, as an element, right there and then
? Yes, it can if there are enough
conditions. But if one thought that 'Oh, here is desire I must remove it', then
one is no longer following the path toward vipassana. One is either having
aversion, or another more subtle desire (to get rid of the big desire) or at best the way of samatha.
However, I am interested in how this happens that we can "know it as an element",and what this actually means.
For sure we cannot just lustfully and greedily indulge in sensual pleasures (or let's say of the sexual variety to make it stark), without efforts at resisting and subduing and abstaining and detaching from it, and at the same time still develop insight /vipassanā into this pheonomenon? Or can we?
Dhammanando wrote:
Cormack Brown wrote:Compare with MN 19:
Whenever thinking imbued with sensuality had arisen, I simply abandoned it, dispelled it, wiped it out of existence.
The Majjhima-ṭīkā takes your quotation from the Dvedhāvitakka Sutta to be a description of what the Nettippakaraṇa calls “abandoning by suppression through the power of reflection” (paṭisaṅkhāna-balena vikkhambhana-pahāna). This is a feature of the development of calm /samatha.

Robert, on the other hand, was speaking of the development of insight /vipassanā.
But is it not true that sensual desire as a hindrance must be removed in order for insight to arise as well?

Or is it the insight (that it is anicca, dukkha, anatta) while it is still present and letting it be, that makes it diminish?

Or does it not diminish and some liberating insight into it is possibly attained somehow anyway?

(Getting enlightened while masturbating would be an example to take it to the extreme... but maybe we don't have to go there.)
Cormac Brown
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:10 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Cormac Brown »

Dhammanando wrote:Robert, on the other hand, was speaking of the development of insight /vipassanā.
Thank you, Bhante. The statement was this:
robertK wrote:But if one thought that 'Oh, here is desire I must remove it', then one is no longer following the path toward vipassana.
Are we to say that the Buddha wasn't following "the path toward vipassana" when he was undertaking this practice? If the implication is that removing sensual desire is not part of the path toward vipassana, then that seems to deny that he was, as well as the role of the Second Noble Truth on the path.

Perhaps, however, I am mistaken as to the nature of the desire he was referring to. Perhaps he was instead referring to the desire that forms the path (1), which certainly must not be removed until it's served its purpose.


(1)http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“I in the present who am a worthy one, rightly self-awakened, am a
teacher of action, a teacher of activity, a teacher of persistence. But the
worthless man Makkhali contradicts even me, (saying,) ‘There is no
action. There is no activity. There is no persistence.’ "
AN 3.138, trans. Ven. Thanissaro
Post Reply