Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

dhamma follower wrote: Brgds

Hi Dhamma Follower,

I'm sorry if this is off-topic, but what is Brgds?

beeblebrox wrote:

dhamma follower wrote: Brgds

Hi Dhamma Follower,

I'm sorry if this is off-topic, but what is Brgds?

Best regards.

(shortest message I've ever typed - d'oh!)

Dan74 wrote:

beeblebrox wrote:

dhamma follower wrote: Brgds

Hi Dhamma Follower,

I'm sorry if this is off-topic, but what is Brgds?

Best regards.

(shortest message I've ever typed - d'oh!)

Hi Dan74,

Thanks. I think that having the best regard towards someone is a sign of wisdom, and it's a good thing.

tiltbillings wrote:

robertk wrote:
Tilt:

It is hard not to read this as a flat, straight forward dismissal of sitting practice itself. Maybe you were really tired when you wrote this and you really do not mean to dismiss meditation practice as direct away of cultivating the factors giving rise to wisdom/insight

.

Think of all the suttas that say seeing and color must be directly known, must be seen with wisdom. Yet I have even heard of people closing their eyes thinking this is part of 'doing vipasaana". (I realize this is a very extreme case, possibly no Dhammawheel members would think that, but it does show the confusions that exist about what 'meditation' really is in the Buddhist sense).

Please elaborate. I have no idea of what you are talking about here.

dear Tilt
i meant suttas like this one from the Samyutta nikaya:
Salayatanasamyutta Full Understanding Translated by by Bhikku Bodhi p1141 Connected Discourses

Bhikkhus without directly knowing and fully understanding the eye, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. Without directly knowing and and fully understanding forns (rupayatana)..eye-consciousness (cakkhu-vinnana)..and whatver feeling arises with eye-contact as condition...one is incapable of destroying suffering..

Mr Man wrote:

robertk wrote:the thought of taking up a Dhamma book looking for wisdom to grow shows confidence in the value of the Dhamma.

Hi robertk
So there is a hierarchy of value given to different activities?

Also: In an earlier post when talking about meditation you said "For me I have my other hobbies so am not so interested for now". I wondered if you envisioned that there would be a time when you returned to a more formalized* practice.


*although it seems that your present practice is actually already rather formalized.

Thanks

you mean my 'formalized' practice of eating at Belly rather than subway? yep, I do recommend them,Ii cant go back to the coarse taste and plastic chairs at Subway .

as for a special meditation practice in the future? Well I have a mild interest in horse riding and target pistol which I haven't had time to explore ... , plus a considerable number of academic projects, family, overseas trips every couple of months etc, ect etc.Then there is cage fighting on TV along with premier league football - all demanding of attention. Its a typical busy householders life I live, and I don't see any urge to take up some specific practice...who knows though

the heirarachy you mention: it is more of a recognition that the teaching of the Buddha is the nutrition that grows wisdom.

robertk wrote: i meant suttas like this one from the Samyutta nikaya:
Salayatanasamyutta Full Understanding Translated by by Bhikku Bodhi p1141 Connected Discourses

Bhikkhus without directly knowing and fully understanding the eye, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. Without directly knowing and and fully understanding forns (rupayatana)..eye-consciousness (cakkhu-vinnana)..and whatver feeling arises with eye-contact as condition...one is incapable of destroying suffering..

And your point is?

dhamma follower wrote: Dear Kirk5a,

Right or wrong concentration?

Right concentration, of course. Which the Buddha defines:

The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The passage quoted above does mean that both samatha and vipassana bhavana must be accompanied by panna-wisdom, and that whenever vipassana panna is there,right concentration is there too.

Again, concentration shouldn't be understood as something one is doing. Ekaggata cetasika -the mental concomitant that samadhi (concentration) refers to -arises with all cittas. We don't need to do anything for that to arise.

So "ekaggata cetasika" is the "singleness of mind" in the quote above. But it's your view that "We don't need to do anything for that to arise" which is so highly problematic.

robertk wrote:

Mr Man wrote:

robertk wrote:the thought of taking up a Dhamma book looking for wisdom to grow shows confidence in the value of the Dhamma.

Hi robertk
So there is a hierarchy of value given to different activities?

Also: In an earlier post when talking about meditation you said "For me I have my other hobbies so am not so interested for now". I wondered if you envisioned that there would be a time when you returned to a more formalized* practice.


*although it seems that your present practice is actually already rather formalized.

Thanks

you mean my 'formalized' practice of eating at Belly rather than subway? yep, I do recommend them,Ii cant go back to the coarse taste and plastic chairs at Subway .

as for a special meditation practice in the future? Well I have a mild interest in horse riding and target pistol which I haven't had time to explore ... , plus a considerable number of academic projects, family, overseas trips every couple of months etc, ect etc.Then there is cage fighting on TV along with premier league football - all demanding of attention. Its a typical busy householders life I live, and I don't see any urge to take up some specific practice...who knows though

the heirarachy you mention: it is more of a recognition that the teaching of the Buddha is the nutrition that grows wisdom.

Thanks for reply and good luck.

dhamma follower wrote:Dear Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
Sometimes, DF, one's practice fails, for whatever reason. It happens, and you should probably ask yourself why you stayed with it for ten years if it was not doing anything of any significance for you. Vipassana practice may have not been for; you may not have had the temperament for it. It kind of sounds like you were being a bit too rigid with your sleepless nights. But the point is that you cannot meaningful say that your experience is applicable to me or anyone else. For me, my vipassana practice has transformed my life and opened up the Buddha's teachings.

The problem is: i was being told that I was having valid insights.

And you weren't having valid insights? If you weren't why would stay with it for ten years? The problem here is not the vipassana practice.

I was happy with that "vipassana practice" enough to keep having retreats for several months a year in ten years. And I do feel my life has been transformed tremendously. However, looking back, does this transformation came from those slowing movements, those sleepless nights? I don't think so. I think my life has changed because of the Buddha's wisdom that I could hear, read, and reflecting upon throughout all those years. It confirms to me that the Buddha Path is that of understanding and detachment. Only understanding can let go.

You obviously weren't getting anything from it, and likely you are not suited for this sort of practice, which happens. Time to move on.

But the point was not about my own experience. I was addressing the ground ideas of the practice, not my own experience of it.

But you are talking about your own experience, given that you are generalizing from your failed experience to everyone else's experience by characterizing the slowing down practice as being characterized by lobha/greed. That may have been true for you, but it certainly was not true for me, and there is no reason to think that your experience was universal. And if was true for you, that is a good indicator that you were missing something rather vital about yourself in your practice.

An apple in English is called pomme in French, but they taste the same. Similarly, what is discussed in the Abhidhamma is also the same truth that the Buddha has become enlightened to under the Boddhi tree and taught in the Sutta. If the truth were different between the sutta and the Abhidhamma, it would be no longer truth. And the Buddha taught the Truth, didn't he?

One would think; however, there is a problem here. You are claiming based upon your experience and the system have subsequently adopted that Burmese vipassana practice is essentially delusional. I have no reason to believe you, and I have no reason to accept the point of view you are advocating, given its sectarian style of us-vesus-them approach that is at serious odds with what is found i the suttas and the Abhidhamma.

Can lobha condition sati to arise? If there is no understanding of what sati is and what are the conditions for it to arise, how can there be real sati which arises to be aware of dhammas as just dhammas (and not "I" am aware of this or that)? So real arising and passing away is still too far, truly....

You are so intent on trying to show that what I do is wrong. I wonder what negative dhamma that is.

It was not directed at you at all. We are simply discussing dhammic points. Let's put aside your or my experiences and back to the original topic: causes for wisdom.

On the other hand this talk about personal experience highlights the glaring difference between what you are proposing and what others see as being essential to practice. And what others see as essential to practice you are dismissing as delusional, but you are unable to actually given solid reason why that is.

A number of msg concerning the nature of "self" were moved to this thread:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 214#p19214" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mr Man wrote:

polarbuddha101 wrote:
This means that wisdom either arises by magic or sheer luck. I will explain. If intending to become wise and intentionally putting oneself in a position or adopting a practice in order to facilitate (help condition) the arising of wisdom is impossible then wise consideration is also impossible to gain except by sheer luck and thus awakening is impossible, except by sheer luck. Perhaps you would like to retract the statement, "wisdom is not conditioned by volition" because the will or intention or volitional movement towards the gaining of wisdom is the only thing that can get one moving in the direction of wisdom unless magic or sheer luck also works as a path to wisdom.

Perhaps wisdom is not somthing that we gain?

In one sense I agree. The idea of gain is still just a fabrication dependent on the idea of an agent but still, without the arising of wisdom and knowledge and vision of phenomena as they have come to be, there can be no ensuing dispassion and release. At some point it's just a matter of semantic debate but by either explanation, i.e gain vs arising, volition is a necessary condition for the experiences of clear-seeing to arise.

robertk wrote:

Mr Man wrote:

robertk wrote:the thought of taking up a Dhamma book looking for wisdom to grow shows confidence in the value of the Dhamma.

Hi robertk
So there is a hierarchy of value given to different activities?

Also: In an earlier post when talking about meditation you said "For me I have my other hobbies so am not so interested for now". I wondered if you envisioned that there would be a time when you returned to a more formalized* practice.


*although it seems that your present practice is actually already rather formalized.

Thanks

you mean my 'formalized' practice of eating at Belly rather than subway? yep, I do recommend them,Ii cant go back to the coarse taste and plastic chairs at Subway .

as for a special meditation practice in the future? Well I have a mild interest in horse riding and target pistol which I haven't had time to explore ... , plus a considerable number of academic projects, family, overseas trips every couple of months etc, ect etc.Then there is cage fighting on TV along with premier league football - all demanding of attention. Its a typical busy householders life I live, and I don't see any urge to take up some specific practice...who knows though

the heirarachy you mention: it is more of a recognition that the teaching of the Buddha is the nutrition that grows wisdom.

I had not come across a Westerner Buddhist who did not consider meditation an integral part of their practice before (with the exception of the Sokka Gakkai people, but few here would even consider them Buddhist).

You live and learn!

I had not come across a Westerner Buddhist who did not consider meditation an integral part of their practice before (with the exception of the Sokka Gakkai people, but few here would even consider them Buddhist).

Maybe I should be classified as "not proper western Buddhist"..Or as quasi sokka gakkai?

robertk wrote:

I had not come across a Westerner Buddhist who did not consider meditation an integral part of their practice before (with the exception of the Sokka Gakkai people, but few here would even consider them Buddhist).

Maybe I should be classified as "not proper western Buddhist"..Or as quasi sokka gakkai?

I am not big on classifying, Robert. I was just surprised, that's all.

Thank you for sharing about your practice here.

robertk wrote:
It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.

And even the more subtle - and ostensibly correct - 'contemplating anicca , dukkha, anatta ' at leisure or whatever, is close to an idea of a self that can decide to have these type of contemplations.
The comment about 'observing rising and passing away" . To truly see 'rising and falling' is not dependent on anything other that deepening wisdom that can discern this. After all in in truth the elements are rising and falling trillions of times in a second.

Hello Robert,

As I understand, you say that doing "formal" meditation (or trying to have sati or samadhi) is not necessary and may not be any more helpful than any other activity or hobby since there is wrong view of self already inherently present while doing such practices.

Do you also say the same about practicing sila? In other words, is sila also not necessary to practice and may not be any more helpful than any other activity or hobby (if there is a sense of self present while observing sila)?
Is the following true in your opinion?: just like practicing to have sati does not lead to wisdom (rather wisdom leads to sati), practicing to observe sila does not help to have wisdom (rather wisdom will condition sila).

Thank you.