The causes for wisdom

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:10 pm

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:. We are a bit more than leaves blowing in the wind.

All we are is Dust in the Wind
:smile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wp4O7v5320

Or puppets pulled and pushed by greed and delusion
Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curisosity, and while it works and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too this materiality (rupa)- mentality (nama) is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness."

Visuddhimagga
xviii31
So, there was absolutely no choice of any sort in the writing of any of the above that is under your name?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:14 pm

robertk wrote:Suttas have already been cited showing that the prime causes for wisdom are hearing and contemplation of the Dhamma.


Hi robertk by "contemplation of the Dhamma" do you mean using the brain to ponder over what has been heard/read from the sutta etc.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:05 pm

tiltbillings wrote:And listening to the Dhamma is a choice and opting to act upon what is heard is a choice that will help cultivate the causes and conditions for the arising of wisdom. We are a bit more than leaves blowing in the wind.

Right. It's this view of total, comprehensive passivity, like dead leaves, dust in the wind, blown here and there by "conditions" which is so very very incompatible with the path the Buddha described. When the Buddha encountered that notion, he refuted it. That has been ignored by the advocates of this view here.
“So, brahmin, when there is the element of endeavoring, endeavoring beings are clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer. I have not, brahmin, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view as yours. How, indeed, could one — moving forward by himself, moving back by himself — say ‘There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer’?”

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .niza.html

Does dust in the wind make kamma? No it does not.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:15 pm

Mr Man wrote:
robertk wrote:Suttas have already been cited showing that the prime causes for wisdom are hearing and contemplation of the Dhamma.


Hi robertk by "contemplation of the Dhamma" do you mean using the brain to ponder over what has been heard/read from the sutta etc.


contemplation can be at the level of pondering the teachings, but it can go deeper.
terms like bhavana and jhaya are related.

Sometimes the word bhavana is used to refer to either samatha or the development of vipassana (which is actually satipatthana).

When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to know that there are two types.

The Dhammapada 371 :"
Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless
."

The atthakatha(Commentary) says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics"
The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the three characteristics'"

Now when it says 'reflecting' this includes direct insight into the actual characteristics and conditions of the present moment(patipatti) right up to the vipassana nanas and magga and phala(pativedha). The Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kammaand nutrition, and also to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of
the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:29 am

robertk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
robertk wrote:Suttas have already been cited showing that the prime causes for wisdom are hearing and contemplation of the Dhamma.


Hi robertk by "contemplation of the Dhamma" do you mean using the brain to ponder over what has been heard/read from the sutta etc.


contemplation can be at the level of pondering the teachings,
Pondering, which is an action of choice. So, one does choose to act in such a way in relation to the teachings. While "pondering" has it place, the Buddha certainly advocated far more than a mere "pondering."

but it can go deeper.
terms like bhavana and jhaya are related.
"bhavana and jhaya ." Both of which indicate active choice in what one does.

The Dhammapada 371 :"
Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless
."
Which indicates a choice of behavior.

The atthakatha(Commentary) says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics"
The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the three characteristics'"

Now when it says 'reflecting' this includes direct insight into the actual characteristics and conditions of the present moment(patipatti) right up to the vipassana nanas and magga and phala(pativedha). The Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kammaand nutrition, and also to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of
the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen
There is no thing in what the commentary says here that would support a Sujin-we-are-leaves-blowing-in-the-wind style of "practice." Quite the contrary. What is being talked about is are choices of action that cultivate the conditions of the arising of insight.

What is interesting is seeing an advocate of the Sujin-we-are-leaves-blowing-in-the-wind style of "practice," showing that he has put in a tremendous amount of work in studying Buddhist texts. I wonder why.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mogg » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:43 am

robertk wrote:
Discuss baby issue with wife on phone.

Here's the problem right here. Either you heard about the Buddha's teachings late in the game, or you've got the wrong idea of how we should be practicing!

With metta
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby cooran » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:44 am

Thanks RobertK and pt1 for your equanimous and interesting contributions to this thread - even in the case where there has been disrespectful allusions to Khun Sujin.

I remember when Ven Dhammanando visited, and other well-known and admired bhikkhus. Are there links to any of their discussions? (sorry to go off topic :tongue: )

With metta
Chris
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:06 am

cooran wrote:Thanks RobertK and pt1 for your equanimous and interesting contributions to this thread - even in the case where there has been disrespectful allusions to Khun Sujin.

I remember when Ven Dhammanando visited, and other well-known and admired bhikkhus. Are there links to any of their discussions? (sorry to go off topic :tongue: )

With metta
Chris
If you are referring to my Sujin-we-are-leaves-blowing-in-the-wind style of "practice", it is based upon robertk's own words and responses, and since robertk is advocating Sujin's position as THE way we must truly understand the Dhamma, it becomes a fair characterization of the Sujin position of "practice" as presented by robertk. There is a possibility that robertk was simply (again) being overly snide in his response here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=680#p242662 But then robertk's snideness does not do anything to further the dialogue, and it does, in fact, characterize Sujin's teachings as that we are naught more than leaves blowing in the wind. If you feel that this characterization is inappropriate, then the report function is there to be used. But, then, maybe it would help if robertk would actually engage the dialogue with appropriate answers rather than being snide.

Also, we are presented with a position that is so out of the mainstream of Dhamma understanding, and it is a position that by the words of its main teacher is highly critical and dismissive of other forms of practice. And it would help if robertk were to fully, and sincerely engage what is being said here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:42 am

tiltbillings wrote:. There is a possibility that robertk was simply (again) being overly snide in his response here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=680#p242662 But then robertk's snideness does not do anything to further the dialogue, , maybe it would help if robertk would actually engage the dialogue with appropriate answers rather than being snide.

.


Danda Sutta

The Stick

Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Just as a stick thrown up in the air lands sometimes on its base, sometimes on its side, sometimes on its tip; in the same way, beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving
, transmigrating and wandering on, sometimes go from this world to another world, sometimes come from another world to this
.

Dust in the Wind, by Kansas, is a great song imho.

without seeing into the nature of realities as they really are then this long long samsara will never end.
that is why soooo much viriya(energy) is needed, as i stressed in this thread.
but viriya is only helful if it is associated with right view. so right effort is not a matter of taking some special posture, it depends on understanding what is here and now. then the truth that has been learned about the anattaness of each dhamma will show itself more and more clearly.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:51 am

as i said earlier in this thread:
Firstly let us be upfront and honest and admit, especially to ourselves, that delusion and conceit are almost omnipresent. Then we can take a breath and see that this Dhamma is so profound that is probable that if we feel we are having frequent moments of sati-sampajana that we are even more deluded than we first admitted.

That degree of honestly will hopefully make us feel like our head is on fire and propel us to learn what the Buddha really taught, to look for every little bit of wrong view .....and keep at it year after year, happily
.

In the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347 The great chapter Dhammadina ) 5oo rich merchants came to see the Buddha . They explained they were given over to the joys of wives and family and captivated by the five strands of sense pleasures. They asked how they should live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train themselves thus:


"as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerned with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will spend our days learning them. That is how you must spend your days."


i feel i do. that and also encourage others to do so.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:59 am

robertk wrote:Dust in the Wind, by Kansas, is a great song imho.
It is okay, but it does not reflect Dhamma practice. The Danda Sutta does not change the fact that, as has been pointed out repeatedly via suttas, that the Buddha advocated putting his teachings into practice, by doing, by action.

without seeing into the nature of realities as they really are then this long long samsara will never end.
that is why soooo much viriya(energy) is needed, as i stressed in this thread.
but viriya is only helful if it is associated with right view. so right effort is not a matter of taking some special posture, it depends on understanding what is here and now. then the truth that has been learned about the anattaness of each dhamma will show itself more and more clearly.
As for Right View, until one becomes an arahant, it is always a work in progress. One starts one's practice, one's journey on the Eightfold Path of action and choice of doing, from where one is. You use this dismissive language -- so right effort is not a matter of taking some special posture --, but the you miss the fundamental point, that it is in the doing, the practice of sila, of bhavana, of learning the Dhamma both in terms of doctrine and in terms of experience, by doing, that Right View is cultivated, that the conditions for insight are cultivated. There is no reason in the world to dismiss this kind of practice, as you have, as empty rules and rituals, as lobha as has Sujin. The only way there is "understanding what is here and now" is by cultivating the conditions, as clearly taught by the Buddha, by doing the practice, by the sila, by the bhavana, by treading the Eightfold Path. And interestingly enough, the Abhidhamma, while may be useful to some, is not necessary in this.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:32 pm

robertk wrote:as i said earlier in this thread:
Firstly let us be upfront and honest and admit, especially to ourselves, that delusion and conceit are almost omnipresent. Then we can take a breath and see that this Dhamma is so profound that is probable that if we feel we are having frequent moments of sati-sampajana that we are even more deluded than we first admitted.

This is a paradox. The result, in my opinion, binds one to ever being bound. It negates the possibility of insight here and now. The ideas that are created are regressive.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:35 am

Mr Man wrote:
robertk wrote:as i said earlier in this thread:
Firstly let us be upfront and honest and admit, especially to ourselves, that delusion and conceit are almost omnipresent. Then we can take a breath and see that this Dhamma is so profound that is probable that if we feel we are having frequent moments of sati-sampajana that we are even more deluded than we first admitted.

This is a paradox. The result, in my opinion, binds one to ever being bound. It negates the possibility of insight here and now. The ideas that are created are regressive.


Dear Mr Man,

I don't think the truth binds. It is craving and ignorance that do. Don't they?

In order to realize that unwholesome dhammas are more present than wholesome, certain understanding of what is wholesome and unwholesome is required, as well as a close examination of our mental states, which is one of the things that the Buddha recommended us to know. It is not a matter of thinking I am good or bad, but to attend the dhammas as they appear with some understanding, and honesty should tell us that unwholesomeness does abound.

Brgds,

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:14 am

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:The title of this thread is Causes for wisdom
Suttas have already been cited showing that the prime causes for wisdom are hearing and contemplation of the Dhamma. This sutta adds to the discussion by showing that listening to the Dhamma leads to the attainment of nibbana. :D
It underlines the crucial importance of right view in the path.
Yes, very choice driven behaviors, all. And, of course, listening is followed by the choice to put into practice, by doing, what the Buddha taught, as has been carefully explained and shown to be so via the suttas, and pretty much most, if not all, of the texts you yourself have quoted.


Dear Tilt and others,

The issue is not whether there's a choice in the conventional sense or not, but to understand that the choice is also conditioned, not "I", me, or mine. Do you agree that choice is conditioned?

When members here read our (Sujin's students) emphasis on the conditioned aspects of dhammas, many might think that the result of it is non-action. How can there be non-action? We all do this or that unless we are paralized, blind and deaf all at the same time.

What we have been trying to show, is that, regardless what one choose to do, it is not the doing, but the right understanding which can be said to cultivate the Path.

There have been many arguments that we have to do, to practice, to make efforts in order for understanding to arise. We, on the other hand, has shown that the cause of right understanding doesn't come from the doing, whatever is is, but from hearing the right teaching and wise consideration of it. It is the words of the Buddha him-self.

The understanding gained from hearing the teaching can go from the intellectual level to the direct level, if there is studying the dhammas as they appear again and again. However, right at the beginning, there should be the clear understanding that it is not "a self" who does the studying, but it is a dhamma which is conditioned by previous hearing and considering which, at some particular point arises and is aware. If this understanding is not firm, there will always be idea of "I" trying to be aware or to observe, and the non-self nature of the reality which is aware can not be known. We can not determine when this dhamma studying, this awareness will occur, since they depend on conditions to arise. So if we can not determine when, why there would be the idea of formal meditation? Can we decide that during that particular time there will be awareness? If we think we can, isn't it the idea of a self who can make some dhammas to arise at will?

If we don't believe that hearing the Dhamma and wise considering alone can condition direct understanding later, does that mean we don't really trust the Buddha's words and the power of his teaching ?

Wise considering is difficult, most diffcult.

Brgds,
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:25 am

Greetings,

dhamma follower wrote:There have been many arguments that we have to do, to practice, to make efforts in order for understanding to arise. We, on the other hand, has shown that the cause of right understanding doesn't come from the doing, whatever is is, but from hearing the right teaching and wise consideration of it. It is the words of the Buddha him-self.

I find it ironic then that the teachings of Sujin veer off into post-canonical Abhidhamma... but as a general principle, I agree with what is said here above.

As I was saying to a friend recently, I believe satipatthana is actually a path of non-appropriation (of dhammas as self, "I" or mine), rather than a path of cultivating insight into the three characteristics. Being about non-appropriation, it's not about "the doing" itself, but "wise consideration of it" which supports non-appropriation.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:27 am

dhamma follower wrote:
What we have been trying to show, is that, regardless what one choose to do, it is not the doing, but the right understanding which can be said to cultivate the Path.

There have been many arguments that we have to do, to practice, to make efforts in order for understanding to arise. We, on the other hand, has shown that the cause of right understanding doesn't come from the doing, whatever is is, but from hearing the right teaching and wise consideration of it. It is the words of the Buddha him-self.
Right hearing and wise consideration are actions, are choices of doing, and the Buddha outlined various ways that that is accomplished, such as the practice of sila, of bhavana, of following -- putting into practice -- the Eightfold Path.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:34 am

dhamma follower wrote:
If we don't believe that hearing the Dhamma and wise considering alone can condition direct understanding later, does that mean we don't really trust the Buddha's words and the power of his teaching ?
The thing is what you mean by "hearing the Dhamma and wise considering" seems not necessarily what one finds in the suttas. One has to act; there is no choice in that, but we have a choice in how we act, and the Buddha taught us to act in such a way that cultivates the causes and conditions that give rise to insight: meditation, sila, the putting into practice the Eightfoild Path.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:53 am

retrofuturist wrote:a path of cultivating insight into the three characteristics.
Which is, in fact, a path of letting go, which cannot be accomplished not by force of will; rather, letting go comes as a result of insight. See Ud 10.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:00 am

dhamma follower wrote: However, right at the beginning, there should be the clear understanding that it is not "a self" who does the studying, but it is a dhamma which is conditioned by previous hearing and considering which, at some particular point arises and is aware. If this understanding is not firm, there will always be idea of "I" trying to be aware or to observe, and the non-self nature of the reality which is aware can not be known. We can not determine when this dhamma studying, this awareness will occur, since they depend on conditions to arise. So if we can not determine when, why there would be the idea of formal meditation? Can we decide that during that particular time there will be awareness? If we think we can, isn't it the idea of a self who can make some dhammas to arise at will?
And the Buddha taught a way of practice for this: sila, meditation, and following the Eightfold Path.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:02 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:a path of cultivating insight into the three characteristics.
Which is, in fact, a path of letting go, which cannot be accomplished not by force of will; rather, letting go comes as a result of insight.

Which is precisely what the Sujinists have been telling you for 36 pages in spite of your protestations, hence why this topic is about the causes for wisdom (i.e. insight).

To borrow from the lexicon of the Visuddhimagga, what is the proximite cause for wisdom?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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