The causes for wisdom

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:06 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:a path of cultivating insight into the three characteristics.
Which is, in fact, a path of letting go, which cannot be accomplished not by force of will; rather, letting go comes as a result of insight.

Which is precisely what the Sujinists have been telling you for 36 pages in spite of your protestations, hence why this topic is about the causes for wisdom (i.e. insight).
But what I have been saying for 36 pages is that one can by sila, bhavana, and following the Eightfold Path cultivate the conditions for the arising of insight, which is something that Sujinists seem to be denying is at all possible, calling such activity based in lobha.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19174
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Paradise

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:09 am

Greetings Tilt,

If one thinks that certain activities which are not the proximite causes for wisdom are in fact the proximite causes for wisdom, then yes, it would be activity based on lobha, because it would not be understanding the Dhammic causality the Buddha taught.

So what is (are) the proximite cause(s) of wisdom?

It is then for us to look to ourselves to see if we're cultivating wisdom or not, by giving rise to the appropriate causes for the arising of wisdom.

The point I have taken out of this conversation is that "sitting on your bum" is not taught by the Buddha as a cause for the arising of wisdom. Neither is "closing your eyes". The cause of wisdom most frequently provided in the suttas appears to be the listening to, and reflecting upon the Dhamma. Then with that wisdom, meditation (i.e. right mindfulness, right concentration) is used as a means of non-appropriation and release. The commonly propagated assumption that the wisdom itself comes from the doing of "meditation" is what I don't recall being substantiated once throughout this topic, but it is now 37 pages long and I do not have photographic memory so apologize if I've missed something pertinent that demonstrates that the Buddha taught this.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14613
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:34 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

If one thinks that certain activities which are not the proximite causes for wisdom are in fact the proximite causes for wisdom, then yes, it would be activity based on lobha, because it would not be understanding the Dhammic causality the Buddha taught.
The question is: who judges what is based and not based on lobha in terms of someone's practice? We have been told here by Sujinists that slow walking meditation is rooted in lobha, and it gets even worse in the linked Q&A around metta meditation. The reality is there is going to be a lot of "lobha" as one starts out, and that is the point. One has to start from where one is. Right View is, until one become arahanta, a work in progress, and the Buddha carefully outlined what we need to do and sort of choice we should make that help cultivate the conditions that give rise to insight.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19174
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Paradise

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:47 am

"The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el277.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
User avatar
kirk5a
 
Posts: 1745
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:51 am

Greetings,

:goodpost:

A wisdom borne of faith, joy, rapture, tranquility, happiness and samadhi.... very nice indeed, like "when rain descends heavily upon some mountaintop, the water flows down along with the slope, and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these being filled fill up the pools; these being filled fill up the ponds; these being filled fill up the streams; these being filled fill up the rivers; and the rivers being filled fill up the great ocean"

:meditate:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14613
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:24 am

retrofuturist wrote:It is then for us to look to ourselves to see if we're cultivating wisdom or not, by giving rise to the appropriate causes for the arising of wisdom.

Of course. And that's what we are all doing (or should be). It's an essential part of practice, and something all good teachers will encourage.

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10112
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:12 am

dhamma follower wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
robertk wrote:as i said earlier in this thread:
Firstly let us be upfront and honest and admit, especially to ourselves, that delusion and conceit are almost omnipresent. Then we can take a breath and see that this Dhamma is so profound that is probable that if we feel we are having frequent moments of sati-sampajana that we are even more deluded than we first admitted.

This is a paradox. The result, in my opinion, binds one to ever being bound. It negates the possibility of insight here and now. The ideas that are created are regressive.


Dear Mr Man,

I don't think the truth binds. It is craving and ignorance that do. Don't they?

In order to realize that unwholesome dhammas are more present than wholesome, certain understanding of what is wholesome and unwholesome is required, as well as a close examination of our mental states, which is one of the things that the Buddha recommended us to know. It is not a matter of thinking I am good or bad, but to attend the dhammas as they appear with some understanding, and honesty should tell us that unwholesomeness does abound.

Brgds,

D.F


Hi dhamma follower
Obviously I am not sugesting that truth binds (what are the qualaties of truth?). And no doubt it is wise to be circumspect but to quote robertk "if we feel we are having frequent moments of sati-sampajana that we are even more deluded than we first admitted." is just another leval of judgement which has been conditiomed. It is more of the same. A viewpoint has been adopted.
User avatar
Mr Man
 
Posts: 1188
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:32 am

ECommentary to samyutta Nikaya (note 313 ) page 809 Bodh

i"for when learning declines the practice declines, and when the practice declines achievement declines. But when learning becomes full, persons rich in learning fill up the practice, and those filling up the practice fill up achievement. Thus when learning etc are increasing my Dispensation increases just like the full moon.
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:36 am

It msy happen that from right study and development we find that what we had once thought were orr strenghts turn out to be faults:our confident nature is mostly mana(conceit). The calmness we cherish only clinging to quiet; our directness mostly aversion. Also it sometimes happens that the teachers we first thought so wise turn out to be stuck in some place or another

. In the Intro. to the Vibhanga(Abhidhamma pitaka) (Pali text society[b])iggelden writes

"
It is all very well to say 'I know what is right and what is wrongThe fact is very few people do know when it comes to the precison of mental behaviour essential to correct development toward release. It is this exactitude of behaviour;mental physical and the conseqeunces thereof, that the scriptures elucidate in detail
"
.[i]Iggelden carries on "It is all very well to say 'I know what needs to be done to break the continuity of rebirth and death'. In fact very few people know of even the most elementary reasons for the continuity of process, let alone of breaking it. It is the detailed description, analysis and reasons given for this cyclic process that the scriptures spend so much care in putting before us. It is all very well to say 'What do I want to know all thesedefinitions of terms for, it only clutters the mind?'The question is, though, how many people when
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:43 am

Mr man: robertk "if we feel we are having frequent moments of sati-sampajana that we are even more deluded than we first admitted." is just another leval of judgement which has been conditiomed. It is more of the same. A viewpoint has been adopted.Mr Man


Hi mr man
I think retro cited this sutta recently
Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, An Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara NikâyaTranslated and edited by Nyanaponika Thera & Bhikkhu Bodhi
Few Are Those Beings
Those who understand the meaning and the Dhamma and who practice in accordance to theDhamma are few, while those who fail to do so are many.
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:57 am

Right View is, until one become arahanta, a work in progres
even a sotapanna has completed the eradication of wrong view. And the one on the path to sotapanna is attentuating wrong view more and more.
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:59 am

retrofuturist wrote:
The point I have taken out of this conversation is that "sitting on your bum" is not taught by the Buddha as a cause for the arising of wisdom.
It is what one does and does not do when one is "sitting on one's bum" that matters.

The cause of wisdom most frequently provided in the suttas appears to be the listening to, and reflecting upon the Dhamma. Then with that wisdom, meditation (i.e. right mindfulness, right concentration) is used as a means of non-appropriation and release.
Interesting, but I have yet to see anything in this thread that convincingly makes this bifurcation. While one can have a carefully structured conceptual knowledge of the Dhamma, garnered from careful reading and reflection, which is of value in making for a context for one's practice, it is in the doing that the Dhamma come alive. "Non-appropriation and release” comes with insight, seeing the conditioned co-produced rise and fall of the all..


The commonly propagated assumption that the wisdom itself comes from the doing of "meditation" is what I don't recall being substantiated once throughout this topic, but it is now 37 pages long and I do not have photographic memory so apologize if I've missed something pertinent that demonstrates that the Buddha taught this.
While the conceptual structure makes a context for the doing, it is the doing that truth of what the conceptual structures point to is realized. The conceptual structure serve no other purpose than supporting the doing. And this is seen most clearly in this most concise and profound expression of the Dhamma:

    "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." – Ud 10

It is with the doing, the sila, the bhavana, and the putting into practice the rest of the Eightfold Path, as we interact with others and as we confront the totality – the all -- of what we are that Dhamma is brought to transformative life.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19174
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Paradise

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:00 am

robertk wrote:ECommentary to samyutta Nikaya (note 313 ) page 809 Bodh

i"for when learning declines the practice declines, and when the practice declines achievement declines. But when learning becomes full, persons rich in learning fill up the practice, and those filling up the practice fill up achievement. Thus when learning etc are increasing my Dispensation increases just like the full moon.
This neatly supports my statements here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&p=242968#p242968 Thanks.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19174
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Paradise

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:03 am

robertk wrote:
Right View is, until one become arahanta, a work in progres
even a sotapanna has completed the eradication of wrong view. And the one on the path to sotapanna is attentuating wrong view more and more.
I stand corrected. I had meant to write ariya, and with that correction, my point still stands.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19174
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Paradise

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:05 am

robertk wrote:
Those who understand the meaning and the Dhamma and who practice in accordance to theDhamma are few, while those who fail to do so are many.
Study and practice -- doing: sila, bhavana and the rest of the Eightfold Path. Again, thanks.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19174
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Paradise

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:59 am

tilt:
While the conceptual structure makes a context for the doing, it is the doing that truth of what the conceptual structures point to is realized. The conceptual structure serve no other purpose than supporting the doing. And this is seen most clearly in this most concise and profound expression of the Dhamma:


"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." – Ud 10

if i remember that sutta correctly, bahiya didn't upon listening then take any particular posture, or walk faster or slower,?
doesn't it show that insight was a matter of listening to the Dhamma and applying it there and then-as in seeing the nature of reality there and then, even while listening. Thus insight is a matter of understanding of seeing , it is a mental phenomena.
the commentary says that Bahiya became an arahat by the end of that sermon.
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:19 am

robertk wrote:tilt:
While the conceptual structure makes a context for the doing, it is the doing that truth of what the conceptual structures point to is realized. The conceptual structure serve no other purpose than supporting the doing. And this is seen most clearly in this most concise and profound expression of the Dhamma:


"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." – Ud 10

if i remember that sutta correctly, bahiya didn't upon listening then take any particular posture, or walk faster or slower,?
doesn't it show that insight was a matter of listening to the Dhamma and applying it there and then-as in seeing the nature of reality there and then, even while listening. Thus insight is a matter of understanding of seeing , it is a mental phenomena.
the commentary says that Bahiya became an arahat by the end of that sermon.
And the commentary also says that Bahiya was a highly experience meditator, which is what makes these instruction for him as potent as they are. He has done much of the ground already. Also, the thing is, these instructions are not just for Bahiya, which is why we have them and several other suttas that give essentially the same instructions for practice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19174
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Paradise

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:25 am

in the full sutta the deva who urged Bahiya to seek out the Buddha said to him that

Then a devata who was a former blood-relation of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth understood that reflection in his mind. Being compassionate and wishing to benefit him, he approached Bahiya and said: "You, Bahiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path to arahatship. You do not follow that practice whereby you could be an arahant or enter the path to arahatship."
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:31 am

robertk wrote:in the full sutta the deva who urged Bahiya to seek out the Buddha said to him that

Then a devata who was a former blood-relation of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth understood that reflection in his mind. Being compassionate and wishing to benefit him, he approached Bahiya and said: "You, Bahiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path to arahatship. You do not follow that practice whereby you could be an arahant or enter the path to arahatship."
So? And you have appealed to the commentary. Does not the commentary state that Bahiya was a skilled meditator? Had he not already laid down the ground work by his practice? Bahiya would not have attained awakening by merely hearing the instructions without the ground work in place, unless you are arguing that causes and conditions do not matter. And also we have, as I said, a number other suttas that give essentially the same instructions.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19174
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Paradise

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:45 am

actually the Commentary gives the attainment of jhanas as one of the possible things that Bahiya might have attained , but doesc not state that he had definitely attained them.
it also says that he
had first heard the Dhamma a hundred thousand kalpas in the past under the
Buddha, Padumuttara and in that life had performed great meritorious
deeds. He had later gone forth’ under Buddha Kassapa .
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/24977
Even so, in the present life, when he became highly respected by people
after he was shipwrecked and wandered around with only garments made from
bark, he mistakenly assumed he was an arahant because he was treated as
one. In fact he had not achieved any level of attainment at all and was
completely misguided, deceiving those who supported him and paid him
respect. It took a visit by Grat Brahma, a former deva companion and an
anagami (non-returner)who took pity on him, to shock him to his senses.
Great Brahma tells him: “You now, though being no arahant, roam about
wearing the guise of a religious in the belief that you are an arahant.
You Bahiya are certainly no arahant. Renounce this evil resorting to views
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Jon, Majestic-12 [Bot], Nicolas and 9 guests