The causes for wisdom

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:55 am

Dan74 wrote:I think early on Robert made a disparaging remark about focusing on the here and now

Just to address this point: not sure what I said but maybe my point was that simply focussing on some object may not be as 'here and now' as we think.
According the ancient Commentaries in the time it takes for a flash of lightening billions of moments of mind have risen and completly fallen away: in essence when we try to catch a moment it has long gone.
This has implications for the way we see 'practice'.
My lifestyle is such that I months every year in diffrent countries, often living out of hotels. Much of the time I am alone but honestly I dont see the time alones being more special- Dhammawise- than the time i am with my wife or friends.
The elements, dhatus, realities are continually arising and passing away: and from my perspective whether they are ones with dosa(aversion) , lobha, (greed) or metta or whatever aren't more special than any other moment. They simply arise and pass away.
Sure, sitting in economy class for 10 hour stretches can condition more moments of impatience, but sometimes it conditions moments of patience that replace those moments. Anyway whatever state "MY" mind is in is of not much more concern than the current weather. That doesn't mean there is no awareness of mindstates: it means I know/feel/trust that there is no MIND as such, there are only elements that arise and pass away: I have as much wish to try to stop them or change them or bring them on than I would to change the weather. They are not me or mine.

Sometimes I read something by meditators that brings on a sense of compassion and wish to help. In fact it was this that started the topic and a related topic when I read about someone disturbed by what he thought having mindfulness meant(see first post). Satisampajanna is always accepting and never the least bit onerous or tiring. On this path the older one gets the younger you feel!

Yesterday I was struck again by a wish to help but really didnt have the words: anyway someone had been on a retreat and left early and now felt upset
With 1 more day to go. Once on the road I realized my mistake, and now I feel completely depressed and angry at myself for not finishing the course (a common theme in my life is getting distracted by fun, to a point where it's out of balance). I don't know what to turn to, s

I wanted to say to him that there is no 'mind' , that there are ony elements, that the fact that they are not behaving as you want them to is their nature, they are uncontrollable. I didn't because I think without a basis in the teachings of the Buddha he might not want to hear this.

But anyone who can understand this will see that their life has become deeply content and that they feel confident to face and accept anything in life, no matter how unwelcome it might be. This is because the moment is always exactly as it should be , as it was conditioned to be. And that means when lobha, even lust, or dosa, even anger, arise that they do not need to be shunned. They can be understood right at that moment, whether talking to our wife, eating a tuna sandwich, sitting in economy, or sitting in lotus position in the jungle.

So the way of vipassana is not the same as the way of samatha, it is seeing things as they are. And that means here and now, even right now as I drink my morning coffee in Costa Coffee shop with Justin Bieber playing in the background.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:44 am

Someone wrote to me:
Dear Robert K,
I assume you would think that one's 'not turning away' from anything based on greater understanding would also be something that happens non-volitionally based on conditions? So then really, it is all on automatic, and there is nothing to do to influence it for better or worse?

_______________


This is a great question; it needs the whole of the Patthana to explain it so I just give some hints. To some extent I think trying to go onto automatic or something because one knows that theoretically there is no-self is like talking about letting go: only words.

As you know the crucial factor in the eight fold path is samma-ditthi, right view; and as you also know this is understanding that comprehends the real nature of dhammas that arise at the 6doors. This type of insight depends most crucially on hearing correct Dhamma from the Buddha or his disciples and reflecting in a correct and profound way on it. There are other factors listed such as discussion on subtle points which are said to assist insight.

Now these factors all depend to some degree on conditions that arise now, however they are also conditioned partly by conditions from the past. Even hearing deep Dhamma is to some extent a matter of vipaka conditioned by kamma a past factor. How fast and how deep one understands what one hears is largely conditioned by pubbekata punnata (merit done in the past). If one has studied Dhamma for some time there should be growing appreciation that hearing and considering it leads to more understanding and detachment: This then conditions effort to hear more, consider more and 'let go' more and these are new conditions arising in the present, but built on past ones.

Nevertheless, it doesn't always work that way; why does one person go so fast, so far and another doesn't. Venerable Sunnakhata (sp?) was the Buddha's attendant before Ananda. He listened to Dhamma and attained Jhana, I think even to the degree of having special powers of hearing. But he eventually left the Buddha, spoke badly of the Dhamma, and followed ascetics who used to live a life of severe ascetism, copying dogs (dog-duty ascetics). Why, when he had all this going for him? The commentary says that this man had lived 500 consecutive past lives as a ascetic and had these tendencies. Even the Buddha's teaching couldn't overcome them. And so we see how dependent past factors are in conditioning behaviour. Of course Sunnakhata made choices, he had volitional control over what he did but what he couldn't see was that ditthi (wrong view)and lobha were underlying all his choices; such a hard delusion to see through.

In fact no one can stop volition because it is a conditioned dhamma. But when volition, along with othe dhammas, is properly understood (a long process) there is detachment from taking volition for self. Sometimes because the results from this profound path are not quickly apparent one might lose confidence and look for something faster. However, I think other ways are dependent on conditions too. And if those conditions should be interrupted one might find that while they thought they were getting to the disease they were really only applying a palliative to the symptoms.

I do believe this rather radical way of seeing into the anattaness of all dhammas gradually gives a type of detachment that isn't shaken by anything. One doesn't expect any dhamma to give satisfaction because they are inherently unstable and every change, whether for better or worse, simply confirms this - at the micro and macro level. There has to be study directly of dhammas for any real insight - but this type of study is only real if it is done without desire. It goes against our natural instincts but the type of effort needed is something more profound than mere trying or watching.

While you are reading there may be a great deal of effort arising along with samadhi- concentration - that help any understanding that is arising.(and if my writing is too obtuse then effort and samadhi may still arise but ....) These factors are conditioned by past paccaya (conditions), some of them very recent, and some I am sure from long ago when there was the development of wisdom in other lives. However , those past conditions aren't enough by themselves to invoke more insight and so other factors , especially hearing Dhamma, from the present are needed.

In fact it can be useful to be secluded and alone where there is time to devote oneself to contemplation. But this is a minor factor and not comparable to the main one of hearing Dhamma because without that ones 'contemplation' will be distorted by view. There are other factors helpful to wisdom also. Here is something from the Satipatthana sutta commentary: "Six things lead to the arising of this enlightenment factor(wisdom): Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth; the purification of the basis (namely, the cleaning of the body, clothes and so forth); imparting evenness to the (five spiritual) controlling faculties; avoiding the ignorant; associating with the wise; reflecting on the profound difference of the hard-to-perceive processes of the aggregates, modes (or elements), sense-bases and so forth; and the inclining (sloping, bending) towards the development of the enlightenment factor of the investigation of mental objects.

Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth means: seeking the meaning of the aggregates, the modes (or elements), sense-bases, controlling faculties, powers, enlightenment factors, way factors, absorption factors, the meditation for quietude, and the meditation for insight by asking for explanation of knotty points regarding these things in the Five Nikayas with the commentaries from teachers of the Dhamma.

Purification of the basis is the cleaning of the personal basis: the body, and of the impersonal basis: clothes and dwelling place. The flame of a lamp is unclear when its wick, oil and container are dirty; the wick splutters, flickers; but the flame of a lamp that has a clean wick, oil and container is clear and the wick does not spit; it burns smoothly. So it is with knowledge. Knowing that arises out of the mind and mental qualities which are in dirty external and internal surroundings is apt to be impure, too, but the knowledge that arises under clean conditions is apt to be pure. In this way cleanliness leads to the growth of this enlightenment factor which comprises knowledge.

Personal cleanliness is impaired by the excessive length of hair of the head, nails, hair of the body, by the excess of humours, and by the dirt of perspiration; cleanliness of impersonal or external things is impaired when robes are worn out, dirty and smelly, and when the house where one lives is dirty, soiled and untidy. So personal cleanliness should be secured by shaving, hair-cutting, nail-paring, the use of pectoral emetics and of purgatives which make the body light, and by shampooing, bathing and doing other necessary things, at the proper time. In similar way external cleanliness should be brought about by darning, washing and
dyeing one's robes, and by smearing the floor of one's house with clay and the like to smoothen and clean it, and by doing other necessary things to keep the house clean and tidy. "endquote
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:01 am

Dan74 wrote:
As for self views and such, I am not sure I read this discussion as people "trying to prove (either to themselves or others) the validity of this inappropriately derived view that "I have no self"". Could this be the core reason Robert and other followers of Khun Sujin reject formal practice because of the view that it is artificial and proceeds from the self-view and therefore reinforces it?

Isn't it ironic that for more or less the same reasons the Soto Zen school emphasized to just sit, sit and sit more?

And for the same reasons the founder of Rinzai Zen, Lin Chi, taught:

"When it's time to get dressed, put on your clothes. When you must walk, then walk. When you must sit, then sit. Just be your ordinary self in ordinary life, unconcerned in seeking for Buddhahood. When you're tired, lie down. The fool will laugh at you but the wise man will understand."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:11 am

robertk wrote:anyway someone had been on a retreat and left early and now felt upset
And this is part of life, and dealing with it or not dealing with it is part of life. He chose to deal with it by discussing it here, getting feedback, which may allow him to better see the play of his mind with a bit more clarity as he confronts similar sorts of issues.

But anyone who can understand this will see that their life has become deeply content and that they feel confident to face and accept anything in life, no matter how unwelcome it might be. This is because the moment is always exactly as it should be , as it was conditioned to be. And that means when lobha, even lust, or dosa, even anger, arise that they do not need to be shunned. They can be understood right at that moment, whether talking to our wife, eating a tuna sandwich, sitting in economy, or sitting in lotus position in the jungle.

So the way of vipassana is not the same as the way of samatha, it is seeing things as they are. And that means here and now, even right now as I drink my morning coffee in Costa Coffee shop with Justin Bieber playing in the background.
Now, of course, any good vipassana meditation teacher will tell you much the same as these two paragraphs in terms of practices they teach, but, of course, the difference is that the causes and conditioned for this sort of insight can be cultivated by frequent and repeated practice – of sila, bhavana, and the rest of the Eightfold Path --, as the Buddha outlined and as various teachers such as Mahasi Sayadaw or Ajahn Chah have taught.

While the prolix intellectual method of the Sujin Abhidhamma approach may speak to some and that it might work, it is not a necessity for one’s practice, and it can likely have as serious draw-backs as it is claimed by Sujin and her followers of the methods of others teachers
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:03 am

robertk wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
As for self views and such, I am not sure I read this discussion as people "trying to prove (either to themselves or others) the validity of this inappropriately derived view that "I have no self"". Could this be the core reason Robert and other followers of Khun Sujin reject formal practice because of the view that it is artificial and proceeds from the self-view and therefore reinforces it?

Isn't it ironic that for more or less the same reasons the Soto Zen school emphasized to just sit, sit and sit more?

And for the same reasons the founder of Rinzai Zen, Lin Chi, taught:

"When it's time to get dressed, put on your clothes. When you must walk, then walk. When you must sit, then sit. Just be your ordinary self in ordinary life, unconcerned in seeking for Buddhahood. When you're tired, lie down. The fool will laugh at you but the wise man will understand."
Of course, that is said to monks in the context of a heavy duty meditation discipline that is characteristic of the Rinzai school.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:38 am

Thank you very much, Robert, for detailed replies. I don't have time to respond in kind tonight - I have exam scripts to complete, but should hopefully be able to do justice to them tomorrow.
_/|\_
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby daverupa » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:50 am

Let's see:

1. Puthujjana are wandering around.

2. Suddenly, a Dhammic Voice of Another appears! Do you:
-attend inappropriately? (--> go to 1.)
-attend appropriately? (--> go to 3.)

3. Right View can arise; two other fetters, when eradicated, render stream-entry, which means...

4. Noble practice.

---

It seems to me that some here are saying 4. is the only time one can start to speak about actual practice, while some are saying 2. is that time.

To those who say "2", the 4-folk seem to say that the voice is a more important condition than attending, or that attending appropriately is choiceless, or impossible to intentionally engage, or some other qualifier. To those who say "4", the 2-folk seem to say that attending appropriately or not is a choice - even if initially incorrectly or incompletely understood - and that as such the two conditions go hand in hand (choosing to go to a Dhamma talk, etc.).
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:11 pm

daverupa wrote:Let's see:

1. Puthujjana are wandering around.

2. Suddenly, a Dhammic Voice of Another appears! Do you:
-attend inappropriately? (--> go to 1.)
-attend appropriately? (--> go to 3.)

3. Right View can arise; two other fetters, when eradicated, render stream-entry, which means...

4. Noble practice.

---

It seems to me that some here are saying 4. is the only time one can start to speak about actual practice, while some are saying 2. is that time.

To those who say "2", the 4-folk seem to say that the voice is a more important condition than attending, or that attending appropriately is choiceless, or impossible to intentionally engage, or some other qualifier. To those who say "4", the 2-folk seem to say that attending appropriately or not is a choice - even if initially incorrectly or incompletely understood - and that as such the two conditions go hand in hand (choosing to go to a Dhamma talk, etc.).
The question is: what is attending appropriately?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:24 pm

daverupa wrote:Let's see:

1. Puthujjana are wandering around.

2. Suddenly, a Dhammic Voice of Another appears! Do you:
-attend inappropriately? (--> go to 1.)
-attend appropriately? (--> go to 3.)

3. Right View can arise; two other fetters, when eradicated, render stream-entry, which means...

4. Noble practice.

---

It seems to me that some here are saying 4. is the only time one can start to speak about actual practice, while some are saying 2. is that time.

To those who say "2", the 4-folk seem to say that the voice is a more important condition than attending, or that attending appropriately is choiceless, or impossible to intentionally engage, or some other qualifier. To those who say "4", the 2-folk seem to say that attending appropriately or not is a choice - even if initially incorrectly or incompletely understood - and that as such the two conditions go hand in hand (choosing to go to a Dhamma talk, etc.).
Actually, I have not been arguing either-or. My point is that Sujinist dismissal of doing practice is problematic. I have made no particular claim about the efficacy or lack thereof of the Sujin method one way or another..
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:10 pm

robertk wrote:
Dan74 wrote:I think early on Robert made a disparaging remark about focusing on the here and now

Just to address this point: not sure what I said but maybe my point was that simply focussing on some object may not be as 'here and now' as we think.
According the ancient Commentaries in the time it takes for a flash of lightening billions of moments of mind have risen and completly fallen away: in essence when we try to catch a moment it has long gone.
This has implications for the way we see 'practice'.
My lifestyle is such that I months every year in diffrent countries, often living out of hotels. Much of the time I am alone but honestly I dont see the time alones being more special- Dhammawise- than the time i am with my wife or friends.
The elements, dhatus, realities are continually arising and passing away: and from my perspective whether they are ones with dosa(aversion) , lobha, (greed) or metta or whatever aren't more special than any other moment. They simply arise and pass away.
Sure, sitting in economy class for 10 hour stretches can condition more moments of impatience, but sometimes it conditions moments of patience that replace those moments. Anyway whatever state "MY" mind is in is of not much more concern than the current weather. That doesn't mean there is no awareness of mindstates: it means I know/feel/trust that there is no MIND as such, there are only elements that arise and pass away: I have as much wish to try to stop them or change them or bring them on than I would to change the weather. They are not me or mine.

Sometimes I read something by meditators that brings on a sense of compassion and wish to help. In fact it was this that started the topic and a related topic when I read about someone disturbed by what he thought having mindfulness meant(see first post). Satisampajanna is always accepting and never the least bit onerous or tiring. On this path the older one gets the younger you feel!

Yesterday I was struck again by a wish to help but really didnt have the words: anyway someone had been on a retreat and left early and now felt upset
With 1 more day to go. Once on the road I realized my mistake, and now I feel completely depressed and angry at myself for not finishing the course (a common theme in my life is getting distracted by fun, to a point where it's out of balance). I don't know what to turn to, s

I wanted to say to him that there is no 'mind' , that there are ony elements, that the fact that they are not behaving as you want them to is their nature, they are uncontrollable. I didn't because I think without a basis in the teachings of the Buddha he might not want to hear this.

But anyone who can understand this will see that their life has become deeply content and that they feel confident to face and accept anything in life, no matter how unwelcome it might be. This is because the moment is always exactly as it should be , as it was conditioned to be. And that means when lobha, even lust, or dosa, even anger, arise that they do not need to be shunned. They can be understood right at that moment, whether talking to our wife, eating a tuna sandwich, sitting in economy, or sitting in lotus position in the jungle.

So the way of vipassana is not the same as the way of samatha, it is seeing things as they are. And that means here and now, even right now as I drink my morning coffee in Costa Coffee shop with Justin Bieber playing in the background.


Hi Robert,

Thank you for sharing a little about your practice.

I am neither equipped nor qualified to make any judgments from what you've shared though I do admire your good humour and equanimity in the face of the auditory onslaught by Justin Bieber!

All I can say is that to be truly equanimous in the face of the most difficult situations and slice at them with vipassana requires a great deal of practice from most people. Now you may have arrived at this point through study and contemplation of the teachings. Others may have done some serious cushion work on the basis of study where spaciousness and clarity are cultivated which can then be applied in the most demanding of life situations.

I know that many practitioners arrive at a place where practice seems to proceed effortlessly and they arrive at it from different directions. This place is usually impermanent and more often than not people backslide.

The danger of practice which is not rooted in deep mental cultivation that is usually had during long retreats, IMO, is that it is superficial and does not withstand strong blows. It is easy to feel that the practice is on track, easy to be a nice enough guy, untroubled and often moved to kindness, when life is relatively trouble-free and settled. But when you are suddenly afflicted by chronic pain, you loved ones seem to turn on you, your job is gone, your routine is upset, the clinging that hitherto was subtle and invisible becomes manifest.

Retro said that " if there is Wrong View, no amount of sitting will change that until Wrong View becomes Right View" and one can similarly substitute "study" instead of "sitting", though I would not agree, but say "it depends". Sitting can reveal wrong view and study can expose it, while sitting can perpetuate it as study can. In relation to Soto I sat with two teachers from the same lineage whose insight into the Dhamma was light years apart. Now they both drank from the same well, but the results were very different.

The Linchi quote is a great one. There is also an exchange related to some of the things you share that briefly goes as follows:

A monks asked a master: "What to do when the six thieves are laying siege to the house?"
The master replied: "They are members of one's own family!"

Such recognition as well as the Linchi's admonition are wonderful reminders that practice is not something special, including sitting practice. I sit on the cushion where there is not an effort to gain, nor fear of losing. There is a meeting of what is, a gesture of respect to Shakyamuni who sat under the Bodhi tree all those centuries ago, a recognition that I am not an arahat able to meet every situation with equanimity and wisdom and to investigate the clinging that blocks this. I don't see it as an artificial practice, an unnecessary practice, but the most useful thing I've ever done. Because it isn't special, it isn't anything realy. It's like taking the road home, kinda familiar and yet we stray at every opportunity!

I've done a fair bit of study especially for a Zennie, but to tell you the truth it has not brought me much beyond the few words of instruction I got from my teacher early on. From my perspective there is not much that is needed for the Right View in order to be able to practice and even less that can be understood before some investigation into the workings of the mind. Like you say - "not me, not mine." Whatever arises - don't attach to it, it comes and it goes, attend closely. What I find in study is inspiration to redouble my efforts and practice harder. This is valuable. The rest mostly satisfies intellectual curiosity and allays anxiety about some issue or point of uncertainly.

It is an incredible thing how different people are and I marvel that your group is able to find so much sustenance in the study and contemplation of the teachings without the need to meditate. I hope that your insights are genuine and deep and you will spread wisdom and compassion around you wherever you go.
_/|\_
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby daverupa » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:16 pm

tiltbillings wrote:dismissal of doing practice is problematic.


I agree. It seems to ignore how the five faculties are described; the monk in question isn't being flagged as ariya, are they?

SN 48.10 wrote:And what is the faculty of persistence? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. He generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:19 pm

robertk wrote:But anyone who can understand this will see that their life has become deeply content and that they feel confident to face and accept anything in life, no matter how unwelcome it might be. This is because the moment is always exactly as it should be , as it was conditioned to be. And that means when lobha, even lust, or dosa, even anger, arise that they do not need to be shunned. They can be understood right at that moment, whether talking to our wife, eating a tuna sandwich, sitting in economy, or sitting in lotus position in the jungle.

If these things were truly understood, then one would also understand how there is the non-arising of unskillful qualities which have not yet arisen, the abandonment of unskillful qualities which have arisen, the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen, and the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:52 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:dismissal of doing practice is problematic.


I agree. It seems to ignore how the five faculties are described; the monk in question isn't being flagged as ariya, are they?

SN 48.10 wrote:And what is the faculty of persistence? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. He generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent...

See: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby daverupa » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:24 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:dismissal of doing practice is problematic.


I agree. It seems to ignore how the five faculties are described; the monk in question isn't being flagged as ariya, are they?

See: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


So then, they are?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:03 pm

daverupa wrote:


So then, they are?
Seems not.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby daverupa » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:19 am

tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote:So then, they are?
Seems not.


Well, the sutta seems to be discussing how stream-entrants are either heedful or heedless; those who are apart from the factors of stream-entry are outsiders, not heedless disciples:

"Nandiya, the person in whom the factors of stream entry are altogether & in every way lacking I call an outsider, one who stands in the faction of the run-of-the-mill. But as to how a disciple of the noble ones lives heedlessly and heedfully, listen well and pay attention, I will speak"


Without making stream-entry an unobtainable ideal, it seems we can yet say that stream-entry is a requisite foundation for right effort.

Nevertheless, isn't stream-entry the result of a doing, an effort (or efforts)? Or is it simply a combination of genetic-kamma (or whatever idea is being employed to make appropriate attention manifest sans choice) and a Dhamma-voice?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:10 am

daverupa wrote:
Nevertheless, isn't stream-entry the result of a doing, an effort (or efforts)? Or is it simply a combination of genetic-kamma (or whatever idea is being employed to make appropriate attention manifest sans choice) and a Dhamma-voice?
In rereading the texts in question, I think you are correct, and as for the question of doing, there have been enough examples in this thread to support the contention that sotapanna is the result of doing. Interestingly, most of the texts robertk has quoted support that position.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Wed May 01, 2013 2:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:
If we don't believe that hearing the Dhamma and wise considering alone can condition direct understanding later, does that mean we don't really trust the Buddha's words and the power of his teaching ?
The thing is what you mean by "hearing the Dhamma and wise considering" seems not necessarily what one finds in the suttas. One has to act; there is no choice in that, but we have a choice in how we act, and the Buddha taught us to act in such a way that cultivates the causes and conditions that give rise to insight: meditation, sila, the putting into practice the Eightfoild Path.


Dear Tilt,

By "hearing the Dhamma", I meant "hearing the Dhamma", and by "wise consideration", I meant "wise consideration" - yoniso manasikara, a mental factor.

On the other hand, you seem to be reading that into "acting", and to be repeating that it is "I" acting.

And you change the conditions for wisdom taught by the Buddha into "doing meditation" , like above.

Brgrds,

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Wed May 01, 2013 2:39 am

tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: However, right at the beginning, there should be the clear understanding that it is not "a self" who does the studying, but it is a dhamma which is conditioned by previous hearing and considering which, at some particular point arises and is aware. If this understanding is not firm, there will always be idea of "I" trying to be aware or to observe, and the non-self nature of the reality which is aware can not be known. We can not determine when this dhamma studying, this awareness will occur, since they depend on conditions to arise. So if we can not determine when, why there would be the idea of formal meditation? Can we decide that during that particular time there will be awareness? If we think we can, isn't it the idea of a self who can make some dhammas to arise at will?
And the Buddha taught a way of practice for this: sila, meditation, and following the Eightfold Path.


Your taking the Eight Noblefold Path as "someone doing something" is only one way to interpret it. There are other ways to interpret that, such as it refers to the dhammas (cetasikas, precisely) which arise by conditions.

Which one accords better to the teaching of anattaness?

Brgds,
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed May 01, 2013 2:44 am

dhamma follower wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:
If we don't believe that hearing the Dhamma and wise considering alone can condition direct understanding later, does that mean we don't really trust the Buddha's words and the power of his teaching ?
The thing is what you mean by "hearing the Dhamma and wise considering" seems not necessarily what one finds in the suttas. One has to act; there is no choice in that, but we have a choice in how we act, and the Buddha taught us to act in such a way that cultivates the causes and conditions that give rise to insight: meditation, sila, the putting into practice the Eightfoild Path.


Dear Tilt,

By "hearing the Dhamma", I meant "hearing the Dhamma", and by "wise consideration", I meant "wise consideration" - yoniso manasikara, a mental factor.

On the other hand, you seem to be reading that into "acting", and to be repeating that it is "I" acting.

And you change the conditions for wisdom taught by the Buddha into "doing meditation" , like above.
The sad thing, in reading this, is that what you are saying I am saying is not what I am saying. Basically, you are presenting the Sujin straw-man as what I am saying, which is something you have repeatedly done above. In other words, you really do not listen to, or understand, what is being said to you. You simply repeat the Sujin talking points against other points of view. It makes for a poor basis for dialogue.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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