The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Paul Davy
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Paul Davy » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:48 am

Greetings,

Dan74 wrote:So if John walks into to a retreat, hoping to learn to settle his mind from racing all over the place, is this on the basis of self-view?
And if on day 5 John sees the phenomena arising and falling, notices his mind reaching out to perceive and experience and in that moment glimpses quiescence and thereafter becomes a dedicated Buddhist practitioner, was it the same as a week spent at the sandwich shop reading the paper?

I apologise for asking the obvious, but surely the initial motivation is not static and is affected by the experience? So I may sit on my bum because I fancy myself being all enlightened and special but after a few days at the retreat of dealing with all the discomfort and the garbage my mind spews out, this thought may wane in importance and I may actually start to pay attention to what's going on and learn a thing or two? And even have some insight? Is this not a possibility?

It's all possible Dan. What Robert & co say doesn't preclude that in any way. If that's a cause of wisdom, then that's a cause of wisdom... but if the suttas are anything to go by, the Buddha always endeavoured to establish people in Right View before sending them off to wrestle with their minds. I don't recall a single instance of him encouraging people to do it the other way around.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Having understood name-and-form, which is a product of prolificity,
And which is the root of all malady within and without,
He is released from bondage to the root of all maladies,
That Such-like-one is truly known as 'the one who has understood'."
(Snp 3.6)

"Whether I were to preach in brief, Sāriputta, or whether I were to preach in detail, Sāriputta, or whether I were to preach both in brief or in detail, Sāriputta, rare are those who understand." (A I 333, Sāriputtasutta)

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Dan74
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:54 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Dan74 wrote:So if John walks into to a retreat, hoping to learn to settle his mind from racing all over the place, is this on the basis of self-view?
And if on day 5 John sees the phenomena arising and falling, notices his mind reaching out to perceive and experience and in that moment glimpses quiescence and thereafter becomes a dedicated Buddhist practitioner, was it the same as a week spent at the sandwich shop reading the paper?

I apologise for asking the obvious, but surely the initial motivation is not static and is affected by the experience? So I may sit on my bum because I fancy myself being all enlightened and special but after a few days at the retreat of dealing with all the discomfort and the garbage my mind spews out, this thought may wane in importance and I may actually start to pay attention to what's going on and learn a thing or two? And even have some insight? Is this not a possibility?

It's all possible Dan. What Robert & co say doesn't preclude that in any way. If that's a cause of wisdom, then that's a cause of wisdom... but if the suttas are anything to go by, the Buddha always endeavoured to establish people in Right View before sending them off to wrestle with their minds. I don't recall a single instance of him encouraging people to do it the other way around.

Metta,
Retro. :)


OK, so then what's the beef with meditation? Is the debate about exactly what the prerequisites are before it is "safe" to "wrestle with our minds"? Or some other thing?
_/|\_

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Paul Davy » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:56 am

Greetings,

Dan74 wrote:OK, so then what's the beef with meditation? Is the debate about exactly what the prerequisites are before it is "safe" to "wrestle with our minds"? Or some other thing?

It's a discussion about the causes of wisdom. If other people have hi-jacked the topic along the way for alternative means, you'll have to ask them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Having understood name-and-form, which is a product of prolificity,
And which is the root of all malady within and without,
He is released from bondage to the root of all maladies,
That Such-like-one is truly known as 'the one who has understood'."
(Snp 3.6)

"Whether I were to preach in brief, Sāriputta, or whether I were to preach in detail, Sāriputta, or whether I were to preach both in brief or in detail, Sāriputta, rare are those who understand." (A I 333, Sāriputtasutta)

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:07 am

retrofuturist wrote:Their view, as I understand it, is that if a practice proceeds from the basis of self-view or wrong view, then it is wrong practice.... thus why Robert keeps saying there is inherently no difference between a range of activities (e.g. selecting a sandwich, sitting on your bum) - these are just differing configurations of rupa.... the underlying citta behind that outward form of rupa is the key thing. The Buddha too in the suttas says that Right View is the forerunner.
The reality is, however, that Right View is always a work in progress (until one becomes ariya). An intellectual Right View understanding of the Dhamma means little until it is put into practice, which is the point of sila, bhavana, and the rest of the Eightfold Path. One cannot think wrong view away, but one can use the tools the Buddha gave us for cultivating the causes and conditions for the arising of Right View grounded in insight.

Accordingly, to use your example of Soto... if there is Wrong View, no amount of sitting will change that until Wrong View becomes Right View... and is sitting the cause of wisdom (right view)? That is what this topic is trying to address...
The sitting ideally helps gives rise to the conditions that allows awareness to "see" the conditioned co-produced rise and fall of the "all."
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:10 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Dan74 wrote:So if John walks into to a retreat, hoping to learn to settle his mind from racing all over the place, is this on the basis of self-view?
And if on day 5 John sees the phenomena arising and falling, notices his mind reaching out to perceive and experience and in that moment glimpses quiescence and thereafter becomes a dedicated Buddhist practitioner, was it the same as a week spent at the sandwich shop reading the paper?

I apologise for asking the obvious, but surely the initial motivation is not static and is affected by the experience? So I may sit on my bum because I fancy myself being all enlightened and special but after a few days at the retreat of dealing with all the discomfort and the garbage my mind spews out, this thought may wane in importance and I may actually start to pay attention to what's going on and learn a thing or two? And even have some insight? Is this not a possibility?

It's all possible Dan. What Robert & co say doesn't preclude that in any way.
But they do, and have done so in this thread when stating that this or that practice, just because it is this or that practice, is grounded in lobha and therefore has no real value. It is not a very understanding of the practices they are criticizing.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:11 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Dan74 wrote:OK, so then what's the beef with meditation? Is the debate about exactly what the prerequisites are before it is "safe" to "wrestle with our minds"? Or some other thing?

It's a discussion about the causes of wisdom. If other people have hi-jacked the topic along the way for alternative means, you'll have to ask them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
This thread has not be hi-jacked. The OP has been questioned, which is appropriate.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:15 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Dan74 wrote:So if John walks into to a retreat, hoping to learn to settle his mind from racing all over the place, is this on the basis of self-view?
And if on day 5 John sees the phenomena arising and falling, notices his mind reaching out to perceive and experience and in that moment glimpses quiescence and thereafter becomes a dedicated Buddhist practitioner, was it the same as a week spent at the sandwich shop reading the paper?

I apologise for asking the obvious, but surely the initial motivation is not static and is affected by the experience? So I may sit on my bum because I fancy myself being all enlightened and special but after a few days at the retreat of dealing with all the discomfort and the garbage my mind spews out, this thought may wane in importance and I may actually start to pay attention to what's going on and learn a thing or two? And even have some insight? Is this not a possibility?

It's all possible Dan. What Robert & co say doesn't preclude that in any way. If that's a cause of wisdom, then that's a cause of wisdom... but if the suttas are anything to go by, the Buddha always endeavoured to establish people in Right View before sending them off to wrestle with their minds. I don't recall a single instance of him encouraging people to do it the other way around.

Metta,
Retro. :)


I think that's a sensible way to try to go about it. The drawback is that until one has done some mental cultivation, one is unlikely to understand much of the Dhamma, since the mind and it's workings are shrouded in ignorance and the finger is forever pointed outwards. So I don't think it's as simple as first Right View, then Concentration. The two are likely to develop in tandem, I think.

Not sure about your second post, Retro. I think early on Robert made a disparaging remark about focusing on the here and now and tilt has tried to draw him out and expose a bit more of the position of Khun Sujin's school which is still puzzling to me, at least.

I know on the one hand people in the West tend to equate Buddhism with meditation and this may be going too far. Meditation does not work for everyone and for most people some groundwork, not just in Dhamma study but in sila is essential.

On the other hand, there seem to be hints of a passive-aggessive complex from "the other camp" that meditators are self-deluding and full of conceit and dhamma study is where it really happens.

This is what this discussion seems to be about for me. Of course there are many causes for wisdom and perhaps it would be good to actually have a list of all the relevant great suttas and teachings quoted here for self-study? Maybe that will return the topic back to what it's meant to be about?
_/|\_

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Paul Davy » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:20 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:
Accordingly, to use your example of Soto... if there is Wrong View, no amount of sitting will change that until Wrong View becomes Right View... and is sitting the cause of wisdom (right view)? That is what this topic is trying to address...
The sitting ideally helps gives rise to the conditions that allows awareness to "see" the conditioned co-produced rise and fall of the "all."

And a lot of yogis sat and meditated prior to the Buddha too.... yet the sasanas of these wanderers and ascetics were bereft of nobility (i.e. bereft of liberating wisdom)

I think we all know what the difference was between their teachings and the Buddha's.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Having understood name-and-form, which is a product of prolificity,
And which is the root of all malady within and without,
He is released from bondage to the root of all maladies,
That Such-like-one is truly known as 'the one who has understood'."
(Snp 3.6)

"Whether I were to preach in brief, Sāriputta, or whether I were to preach in detail, Sāriputta, or whether I were to preach both in brief or in detail, Sāriputta, rare are those who understand." (A I 333, Sāriputtasutta)

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Paul Davy » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:30 am

Greetings,

Dan74 wrote:I think early on Robert made a disparaging remark about focusing on the here and now

I think the concern was more about "focusing on the here and now" in the absence of Right View.... in other words, "focusing on the here and now" is no substitute for Right View. "Focusing on the here and now" is not the forerunner.

Dan74 wrote:On the other hand, there seem to be hints of a passive-aggessive complex from "the other camp" that meditators are self-deluding and full of conceit and dhamma study is where it really happens.

Who knows. It just feels like different people trying to tilt the public agenda, each side attempting to publicly correct perceived imbalances in public perceptions of Dhamma practice. I see Dhamma practice as a personal thing so am more interested in the sharing and listening of views, and the taking on board of what is deemed useful by the individual, rather than those views being pitted against each other in public debate. But that's just my preference... I'm not here to impose it on others.

Dan74 wrote:Of course there are many causes for wisdom and perhaps it would be good to actually have a list of all the relevant great suttas and teachings quoted here for self-study? Maybe that will return the topic back to what it's meant to be about?

Yes, if I understand it, that's what this topic is about.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Having understood name-and-form, which is a product of prolificity,
And which is the root of all malady within and without,
He is released from bondage to the root of all maladies,
That Such-like-one is truly known as 'the one who has understood'."
(Snp 3.6)

"Whether I were to preach in brief, Sāriputta, or whether I were to preach in detail, Sāriputta, or whether I were to preach both in brief or in detail, Sāriputta, rare are those who understand." (A I 333, Sāriputtasutta)

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:32 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:
Accordingly, to use your example of Soto... if there is Wrong View, no amount of sitting will change that until Wrong View becomes Right View... and is sitting the cause of wisdom (right view)? That is what this topic is trying to address...
The sitting ideally helps gives rise to the conditions that allows awareness to "see" the conditioned co-produced rise and fall of the "all."

And a lot of yogis sat and meditated prior to the Buddha too.... yet the sasanas of these wanderers and ascetics were bereft of nobility (i.e. bereft of liberating wisdom)

I think we all know what the difference was between their teachings and the Buddha's.
Of course.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:53 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Dan74 wrote:I think early on Robert made a disparaging remark about focusing on the here and now

I think the concern was more about "focusing on the here and now" in the absence of Right View.... in other words, "focusing on the here and now" is no substitute for Right View. "Focusing on the here and now" is not the forerunner.
Right View, which will not be perfected until one is ariya, helps put a context to the "here and now" practice and the "here and now" practice illuminates Right View.

Dan74 wrote:On the other hand, there seem to be hints of a passive-aggessive complex from "the other camp" that meditators are self-deluding and full of conceit and dhamma study is where it really happens.

Who knows. It just feels like different people trying to tilt the public agenda
That is cute; however, I have no interest in "tilting" any agenda. While the Sujin practice may be efficacious, I have no interest in that sort of dry Abhidhamma style of doing things, but I would not say to another, do not do that for this or that reason. I do, however, take exception to what looks to be, from Sujin and her followers, very negative straw-man characterizations of other forms of Dhamma practice. Calling that into question is not trying to “tilt the public agenda,” which seems to suggest a negative value. It is dialogue and debate, which is the purpose of this forum and such discussuion has its worth.

I see Dhamma practice as a personal thing so am more interested in the sharing and listening of views, and the taking on board of what is deemed useful by the individual, rather than those views being pitted against each other in public debate. But that's just my preference... I'm not here to impose it on others.
Practice is, indeed, a personal thing, which is why characterizing in such a negative way, as the Sujin people are doing here other forms of Dhamma practice, should be looked at as it happens.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:55 am

Dan74 wrote:I think early on Robert made a disparaging remark about focusing on the here and now

Just to address this point: not sure what I said but maybe my point was that simply focussing on some object may not be as 'here and now' as we think.
According the ancient Commentaries in the time it takes for a flash of lightening billions of moments of mind have risen and completly fallen away: in essence when we try to catch a moment it has long gone.
This has implications for the way we see 'practice'.
My lifestyle is such that I months every year in diffrent countries, often living out of hotels. Much of the time I am alone but honestly I dont see the time alones being more special- Dhammawise- than the time i am with my wife or friends.
The elements, dhatus, realities are continually arising and passing away: and from my perspective whether they are ones with dosa(aversion) , lobha, (greed) or metta or whatever aren't more special than any other moment. They simply arise and pass away.
Sure, sitting in economy class for 10 hour stretches can condition more moments of impatience, but sometimes it conditions moments of patience that replace those moments. Anyway whatever state "MY" mind is in is of not much more concern than the current weather. That doesn't mean there is no awareness of mindstates: it means I know/feel/trust that there is no MIND as such, there are only elements that arise and pass away: I have as much wish to try to stop them or change them or bring them on than I would to change the weather. They are not me or mine.

Sometimes I read something by meditators that brings on a sense of compassion and wish to help. In fact it was this that started the topic and a related topic when I read about someone disturbed by what he thought having mindfulness meant(see first post). Satisampajanna is always accepting and never the least bit onerous or tiring. On this path the older one gets the younger you feel!

Yesterday I was struck again by a wish to help but really didnt have the words: anyway someone had been on a retreat and left early and now felt upset
With 1 more day to go. Once on the road I realized my mistake, and now I feel completely depressed and angry at myself for not finishing the course (a common theme in my life is getting distracted by fun, to a point where it's out of balance). I don't know what to turn to, s

I wanted to say to him that there is no 'mind' , that there are ony elements, that the fact that they are not behaving as you want them to is their nature, they are uncontrollable. I didn't because I think without a basis in the teachings of the Buddha he might not want to hear this.

But anyone who can understand this will see that their life has become deeply content and that they feel confident to face and accept anything in life, no matter how unwelcome it might be. This is because the moment is always exactly as it should be , as it was conditioned to be. And that means when lobha, even lust, or dosa, even anger, arise that they do not need to be shunned. They can be understood right at that moment, whether talking to our wife, eating a tuna sandwich, sitting in economy, or sitting in lotus position in the jungle.

So the way of vipassana is not the same as the way of samatha, it is seeing things as they are. And that means here and now, even right now as I drink my morning coffee in Costa Coffee shop with Justin Bieber playing in the background.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:44 am

Someone wrote to me:
Dear Robert K,
I assume you would think that one's 'not turning away' from anything based on greater understanding would also be something that happens non-volitionally based on conditions? So then really, it is all on automatic, and there is nothing to do to influence it for better or worse?

_______________


This is a great question; it needs the whole of the Patthana to explain it so I just give some hints. To some extent I think trying to go onto automatic or something because one knows that theoretically there is no-self is like talking about letting go: only words.

As you know the crucial factor in the eight fold path is samma-ditthi, right view; and as you also know this is understanding that comprehends the real nature of dhammas that arise at the 6doors. This type of insight depends most crucially on hearing correct Dhamma from the Buddha or his disciples and reflecting in a correct and profound way on it. There are other factors listed such as discussion on subtle points which are said to assist insight.

Now these factors all depend to some degree on conditions that arise now, however they are also conditioned partly by conditions from the past. Even hearing deep Dhamma is to some extent a matter of vipaka conditioned by kamma a past factor. How fast and how deep one understands what one hears is largely conditioned by pubbekata punnata (merit done in the past). If one has studied Dhamma for some time there should be growing appreciation that hearing and considering it leads to more understanding and detachment: This then conditions effort to hear more, consider more and 'let go' more and these are new conditions arising in the present, but built on past ones.

Nevertheless, it doesn't always work that way; why does one person go so fast, so far and another doesn't. Venerable Sunnakhata (sp?) was the Buddha's attendant before Ananda. He listened to Dhamma and attained Jhana, I think even to the degree of having special powers of hearing. But he eventually left the Buddha, spoke badly of the Dhamma, and followed ascetics who used to live a life of severe ascetism, copying dogs (dog-duty ascetics). Why, when he had all this going for him? The commentary says that this man had lived 500 consecutive past lives as a ascetic and had these tendencies. Even the Buddha's teaching couldn't overcome them. And so we see how dependent past factors are in conditioning behaviour. Of course Sunnakhata made choices, he had volitional control over what he did but what he couldn't see was that ditthi (wrong view)and lobha were underlying all his choices; such a hard delusion to see through.

In fact no one can stop volition because it is a conditioned dhamma. But when volition, along with othe dhammas, is properly understood (a long process) there is detachment from taking volition for self. Sometimes because the results from this profound path are not quickly apparent one might lose confidence and look for something faster. However, I think other ways are dependent on conditions too. And if those conditions should be interrupted one might find that while they thought they were getting to the disease they were really only applying a palliative to the symptoms.

I do believe this rather radical way of seeing into the anattaness of all dhammas gradually gives a type of detachment that isn't shaken by anything. One doesn't expect any dhamma to give satisfaction because they are inherently unstable and every change, whether for better or worse, simply confirms this - at the micro and macro level. There has to be study directly of dhammas for any real insight - but this type of study is only real if it is done without desire. It goes against our natural instincts but the type of effort needed is something more profound than mere trying or watching.

While you are reading there may be a great deal of effort arising along with samadhi- concentration - that help any understanding that is arising.(and if my writing is too obtuse then effort and samadhi may still arise but ....) These factors are conditioned by past paccaya (conditions), some of them very recent, and some I am sure from long ago when there was the development of wisdom in other lives. However , those past conditions aren't enough by themselves to invoke more insight and so other factors , especially hearing Dhamma, from the present are needed.

In fact it can be useful to be secluded and alone where there is time to devote oneself to contemplation. But this is a minor factor and not comparable to the main one of hearing Dhamma because without that ones 'contemplation' will be distorted by view. There are other factors helpful to wisdom also. Here is something from the Satipatthana sutta commentary: "Six things lead to the arising of this enlightenment factor(wisdom): Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth; the purification of the basis (namely, the cleaning of the body, clothes and so forth); imparting evenness to the (five spiritual) controlling faculties; avoiding the ignorant; associating with the wise; reflecting on the profound difference of the hard-to-perceive processes of the aggregates, modes (or elements), sense-bases and so forth; and the inclining (sloping, bending) towards the development of the enlightenment factor of the investigation of mental objects.

Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth means: seeking the meaning of the aggregates, the modes (or elements), sense-bases, controlling faculties, powers, enlightenment factors, way factors, absorption factors, the meditation for quietude, and the meditation for insight by asking for explanation of knotty points regarding these things in the Five Nikayas with the commentaries from teachers of the Dhamma.

Purification of the basis is the cleaning of the personal basis: the body, and of the impersonal basis: clothes and dwelling place. The flame of a lamp is unclear when its wick, oil and container are dirty; the wick splutters, flickers; but the flame of a lamp that has a clean wick, oil and container is clear and the wick does not spit; it burns smoothly. So it is with knowledge. Knowing that arises out of the mind and mental qualities which are in dirty external and internal surroundings is apt to be impure, too, but the knowledge that arises under clean conditions is apt to be pure. In this way cleanliness leads to the growth of this enlightenment factor which comprises knowledge.

Personal cleanliness is impaired by the excessive length of hair of the head, nails, hair of the body, by the excess of humours, and by the dirt of perspiration; cleanliness of impersonal or external things is impaired when robes are worn out, dirty and smelly, and when the house where one lives is dirty, soiled and untidy. So personal cleanliness should be secured by shaving, hair-cutting, nail-paring, the use of pectoral emetics and of purgatives which make the body light, and by shampooing, bathing and doing other necessary things, at the proper time. In similar way external cleanliness should be brought about by darning, washing and
dyeing one's robes, and by smearing the floor of one's house with clay and the like to smoothen and clean it, and by doing other necessary things to keep the house clean and tidy. "endquote

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:01 am

Dan74 wrote:
As for self views and such, I am not sure I read this discussion as people "trying to prove (either to themselves or others) the validity of this inappropriately derived view that "I have no self"". Could this be the core reason Robert and other followers of Khun Sujin reject formal practice because of the view that it is artificial and proceeds from the self-view and therefore reinforces it?

Isn't it ironic that for more or less the same reasons the Soto Zen school emphasized to just sit, sit and sit more?

And for the same reasons the founder of Rinzai Zen, Lin Chi, taught:

"When it's time to get dressed, put on your clothes. When you must walk, then walk. When you must sit, then sit. Just be your ordinary self in ordinary life, unconcerned in seeking for Buddhahood. When you're tired, lie down. The fool will laugh at you but the wise man will understand."

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:11 am

robertk wrote:anyway someone had been on a retreat and left early and now felt upset
And this is part of life, and dealing with it or not dealing with it is part of life. He chose to deal with it by discussing it here, getting feedback, which may allow him to better see the play of his mind with a bit more clarity as he confronts similar sorts of issues.

But anyone who can understand this will see that their life has become deeply content and that they feel confident to face and accept anything in life, no matter how unwelcome it might be. This is because the moment is always exactly as it should be , as it was conditioned to be. And that means when lobha, even lust, or dosa, even anger, arise that they do not need to be shunned. They can be understood right at that moment, whether talking to our wife, eating a tuna sandwich, sitting in economy, or sitting in lotus position in the jungle.

So the way of vipassana is not the same as the way of samatha, it is seeing things as they are. And that means here and now, even right now as I drink my morning coffee in Costa Coffee shop with Justin Bieber playing in the background.
Now, of course, any good vipassana meditation teacher will tell you much the same as these two paragraphs in terms of practices they teach, but, of course, the difference is that the causes and conditioned for this sort of insight can be cultivated by frequent and repeated practice – of sila, bhavana, and the rest of the Eightfold Path --, as the Buddha outlined and as various teachers such as Mahasi Sayadaw or Ajahn Chah have taught.

While the prolix intellectual method of the Sujin Abhidhamma approach may speak to some and that it might work, it is not a necessity for one’s practice, and it can likely have as serious draw-backs as it is claimed by Sujin and her followers of the methods of others teachers
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:03 am

robertk wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
As for self views and such, I am not sure I read this discussion as people "trying to prove (either to themselves or others) the validity of this inappropriately derived view that "I have no self"". Could this be the core reason Robert and other followers of Khun Sujin reject formal practice because of the view that it is artificial and proceeds from the self-view and therefore reinforces it?

Isn't it ironic that for more or less the same reasons the Soto Zen school emphasized to just sit, sit and sit more?

And for the same reasons the founder of Rinzai Zen, Lin Chi, taught:

"When it's time to get dressed, put on your clothes. When you must walk, then walk. When you must sit, then sit. Just be your ordinary self in ordinary life, unconcerned in seeking for Buddhahood. When you're tired, lie down. The fool will laugh at you but the wise man will understand."
Of course, that is said to monks in the context of a heavy duty meditation discipline that is characteristic of the Rinzai school.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Dan74
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:38 am

Thank you very much, Robert, for detailed replies. I don't have time to respond in kind tonight - I have exam scripts to complete, but should hopefully be able to do justice to them tomorrow.
_/|\_

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daverupa
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby daverupa » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:50 am

Let's see:

1. Puthujjana are wandering around.

2. Suddenly, a Dhammic Voice of Another appears! Do you:
-attend inappropriately? (--> go to 1.)
-attend appropriately? (--> go to 3.)

3. Right View can arise; two other fetters, when eradicated, render stream-entry, which means...

4. Noble practice.

---

It seems to me that some here are saying 4. is the only time one can start to speak about actual practice, while some are saying 2. is that time.

To those who say "2", the 4-folk seem to say that the voice is a more important condition than attending, or that attending appropriately is choiceless, or impossible to intentionally engage, or some other qualifier. To those who say "4", the 2-folk seem to say that attending appropriately or not is a choice - even if initially incorrectly or incompletely understood - and that as such the two conditions go hand in hand (choosing to go to a Dhamma talk, etc.).
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:11 pm

daverupa wrote:Let's see:

1. Puthujjana are wandering around.

2. Suddenly, a Dhammic Voice of Another appears! Do you:
-attend inappropriately? (--> go to 1.)
-attend appropriately? (--> go to 3.)

3. Right View can arise; two other fetters, when eradicated, render stream-entry, which means...

4. Noble practice.

---

It seems to me that some here are saying 4. is the only time one can start to speak about actual practice, while some are saying 2. is that time.

To those who say "2", the 4-folk seem to say that the voice is a more important condition than attending, or that attending appropriately is choiceless, or impossible to intentionally engage, or some other qualifier. To those who say "4", the 2-folk seem to say that attending appropriately or not is a choice - even if initially incorrectly or incompletely understood - and that as such the two conditions go hand in hand (choosing to go to a Dhamma talk, etc.).
The question is: what is attending appropriately?
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
Posts: 22413
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:24 pm

daverupa wrote:Let's see:

1. Puthujjana are wandering around.

2. Suddenly, a Dhammic Voice of Another appears! Do you:
-attend inappropriately? (--> go to 1.)
-attend appropriately? (--> go to 3.)

3. Right View can arise; two other fetters, when eradicated, render stream-entry, which means...

4. Noble practice.

---

It seems to me that some here are saying 4. is the only time one can start to speak about actual practice, while some are saying 2. is that time.

To those who say "2", the 4-folk seem to say that the voice is a more important condition than attending, or that attending appropriately is choiceless, or impossible to intentionally engage, or some other qualifier. To those who say "4", the 2-folk seem to say that attending appropriately or not is a choice - even if initially incorrectly or incompletely understood - and that as such the two conditions go hand in hand (choosing to go to a Dhamma talk, etc.).
Actually, I have not been arguing either-or. My point is that Sujinist dismissal of doing practice is problematic. I have made no particular claim about the efficacy or lack thereof of the Sujin method one way or another..
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723


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