The causes for wisdom

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 9:49 am

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Robertk is advocating a very particular point of view, which should be fine, except that the Sujin point of view, in the hands of her followers, can be highly critical and dismissive of other points of view. The issue here for me is not that the Sujin teachings are or are not efficacious;

rather, the concern I have is about the uncompromising criticism of formal meditation practice (of whatever style) as not being efficacious.


Sure, I can relate to that.

I don't know what the right way would be to deal with such criticism in public, though. I'm not a teacher or a public figure of any kind, so it's beyond my competence to take a public stance against such criticism.

For my own private purposes, I certainly must take some kind of stance against such criticism of formal practice, as I do place a lot of faith in formal practice - be it a practice of meditation or of some physical skill etc.
It is a can of worms, which robertk has opened up with OP and continue to kick around in this thread. Had there not been the unwarranted criticism of virtually every other meditation tradition, I likely would not have paid much attention, if any, to this thread, but it seems that the Sujin followers cannot talk about the Sujin teachings without criticizing the other meditation traditions, and rather harshly at that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19323
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby binocular » Mon May 06, 2013 9:50 am

"And as for a person who is impure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, but who periodically experiences mental clarity & calm, how should one subdue hatred for him? Just as when there is a little puddle in a cow's footprint, and a person comes along, burning with heat, covered with sweat, exhausted, trembling, & thirsty. The thought would occur to him, 'Here is this little puddle in a cow's footprint. If I tried to drink the water using my hand or cup, I would disturb it, stir it up, & make it unfit to drink. What if I were to get down on all fours and slurp it up like a cow, and then go on my way?' So he would get down on all fours, slurp up the water like a cow, and then go on his way. In the same way, when an individual is impure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, but periodically experiences mental clarity & calm, one should at that time pay no attention to the impurity of his bodily behavior...the impurity of his verbal behavior, and instead pay attention to the fact that he periodically experiences mental clarity & calm. Thus the hatred for him should be subdued.

AN 5.162
binocular
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 9:51 am

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:... if one believes that there is a self who can condition dhammas as wished, which is the underlying idea of "formal practice" how can there be detachment from an idea of self? Given the following, we can read this sentence exactly as it is written:

dhamma follower wrote:What I was saying is that the idea of having to do formal practice is motivated by the wrong view of self.
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=200#p229398

it is the underlying idea of a self who can make certain dhammas to arise at certain time that motivates a formal practice.
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=200#p229401

When one think that volition can indeed conditions dhammas to arise, isn't it a form of self-identification, of I-making?
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=840#p243961


In line with Thanissaro Bhikkhu's teachings on not-self as a strategy, I would say that the above quotes are examples of prematurely or unduly dropping the self-view.
Yes, which is not without its problems.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19323
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby binocular » Mon May 06, 2013 9:53 am

tiltbillings wrote:
binocular wrote:In line with Thanissaro Bhikkhu's teachings on not-self as a strategy, I would say that the above quotes are examples of prematurely or unduly dropping the self-view.
Yes, which is not without its problems.


What do you mean is not without problems - Thanissaro Bhikkhu's teachings on not-self as a strategy, or prematurely / unduly dropping the self-view?
binocular
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 9:53 am

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
I know of a lady who is convinced she is practicing vipassana. Also, as her end-of-life strategy, she is ready to use a helium bag (supposedly, tying a bag of helium around one's head will ensure a quick and painless death).
Why on earth would someone who really practices vipassana, make such a plan to kill herself??
And then I think - well, maybe she doesn't practice vipassana at all, or she just hasn't come very far but likes to brag with her "vipassana practice" anyway, or some such.
And the point of this story is?

It's an example of what Robert was talking about, as I quoted -

The Buddha never taught vipassana as a technique, but sadly ,and I think contributing to the decline of the sasana , in recent times there are groups who have co-opted the word to mean some type of focusing on an object/objects. It is quite easy to fool people as if they quote the satipatthana sutta (which includes countless number of objects) then it is assumed the technique is 'vipassana'. However I believe little can be done to help anyone who thinks they are 'doing' vipassana, the attachment runs too deep usually.
Any spiritual practice can be twisted so.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19323
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 9:55 am

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
binocular wrote:In line with Thanissaro Bhikkhu's teachings on not-self as a strategy, I would say that the above quotes are examples of prematurely or unduly dropping the self-view.
Yes, which is not without its problems.


What do you mean is not without problems - Thanissaro Bhikkhu's teachings on not-self as a strategy, or prematurely / unduly dropping the self-view?
Assuming a no-self view without real insight. The Madhyamikan Mahayanists have their verision of this they call "emptiness sickness."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19323
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby binocular » Mon May 06, 2013 9:57 am

tiltbillings wrote:Any spiritual practice can be twisted so.


Sure. Nevertheless, even some such twisters occasionally do make a good point, and that isn't to be dimissed just because they otherwise say so much nonsense.

:meditate:
binocular
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 10:03 am

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Any spiritual practice can be twisted so.


Sure. Nevertheless, even some such twisters occasionally do make a good point, and that isn't to be dimissed just because they otherwise say so much nonsense.

:meditate:
You are confusing me here as to who you are now talking about, but that may be because I really need to go to bed.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19323
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Mon May 06, 2013 10:13 am

TILT: I know full well that vipassana is not a technique, but I also know full that the causes and conditions for vipassana, insight, can be, as the Buddha taught, cultivated, and the differences between your position and that of those who see meditation practice of value has been drawn out by me and others at great length. But again, despite that significant difference between your mode of practice and the mode of practice that involves directly putting the teachings into practice, I would not say that what you are advocating does not work. Again, the problem is your dismissal of other ways of understanding and putting the Dhamma into practice

I think the fact that we agree that vipassana or satipatthana is not a technique is indicative that we are not so far way .
Earlier on this thread I gave a link to Deeds of Merit by Sujin Boriharnwanaket:




QUOTE

"This is another level of kusala besides the levels of , generosity, and siila, morality

Sujin. : The monks are accustomed to practise continuously, for a long time, four meditation subjects of samatha, in order to have calm of citta and to subdue defilements which can disturb them. Laypeople can also practise these four meditation subjects. The Dhamma and the Vinaya which the monks practise can also be applied by layfollowers in their own situation, as a means of subduing defilements.

W. : What are these four meditation subjects?

Sujin. : Recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the development of mettaa (loving kindness), perception of repulsiveness and mindfulness of death.

Sujin. : The recitation we do every night before going to sleep is the paying of respect to the Buddha. This is a meritorious action of the level of siila, because it is kusala performed through body and speech. But for kusala citta with calm of the level of samatha it is not sufficient to merely recite words, but it is also necessary to recollect, to ponder over the excellent qualities of the Buddha."



She then explains a little more about Buddhanusati.

I heard on a tape recently someone asking her why she places most stress on satipatthana and anatta. Basically she said that for those who have the accumulations to understand these that this is the rarest teaching.
Thus for one who is intent on samatha , who lives a secluded life then the term formal practice may fit. But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1226
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Mon May 06, 2013 10:19 am

Greetings Robert,

robertk wrote:But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.

What you say here, especially the part I bolded, accords with my understanding of the Satipatthana Sutta.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14650
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 10:40 am

robertk wrote:
TILT: I know full well that vipassana is not a technique, but I also know full that the causes and conditions for vipassana, insight, can be, as the Buddha taught, cultivated, and the differences between your position and that of those who see meditation practice of value has been drawn out by me and others at great length. But again, despite that significant difference between your mode of practice and the mode of practice that involves directly putting the teachings into practice, I would not say that what you are advocating does not work. Again, the problem is your dismissal of other ways of understanding and putting the Dhamma into practice

I think the fact that we agree that vipassana or satipatthana is not a technique is indicative that we are not so far way .
Insight arises from the cultivated causes and conditions which are best rooted in the various awareness/concentration meditation techniques that are grounded in the Buddha's teachings, such as the Satipatthana Sutta. As for satipatthana, as in the Satipatthana Sutta, not being a technique, that is not quite correct. The sutta is a nifty outline of a variety practices that can be actualized by various techniques that have been variously worked out over the ages by Buddhist meditators. The practices help cultivate the causes and conditions giving rise to insight, and these insight may arise during one's meditation or during one's daily life, given that one has cultivated the awareness and focus of mind in the context of the practices outlined in the sutta/suttas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19323
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 10:48 am

robertk wrote: But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
And this simply very poorly understands what the vipassana meditation practice is about.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19323
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mr Man » Mon May 06, 2013 11:22 am

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote: But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
And this simply very poorly understands what the vipassana meditation practice is about.


Hi Tilt
What is "vipassana meditation practice"?
User avatar
Mr Man
 
Posts: 1227
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 11:31 am

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote: But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
And this simply very poorly understands what the vipassana meditation practice is about.


Hi Tilt
What is "vipassana meditation practice"?
Damdifino. In the context of this unfortunate thread, probably the Burmese practice that have gotten the unfortunate applelation of vipassana meditation, but one could include in a more general way the sort of thing Ajahn Chah or Buddhadasa or any number of others taught/teach, and that could include jhana practice as long as insight was a goal. That answer your question?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19323
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Mon May 06, 2013 11:41 am

retrofuturist wrote:
robertk wrote:But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.

What you say here, especially the part I bolded, accords with my understanding of the Satipatthana Sutta.

Being able to face any object at any time is, of course, the goal that we all aspire to. There should be no disagreement on that. What conditions are required to be able to do that is the question. As has been pointed out many times, in this thread, and elsewhere, it's clearly not a simple matter of deciding to be ready to face any object...

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10234
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby daverupa » Mon May 06, 2013 11:43 am

mikenz66 wrote:it's clearly not a simple matter of deciding to be ready to face any object...


:strawman: ?

No one made this claim, that I saw. One can't decide to be ready, but one decides to train for readiness.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4104
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 11:48 am

daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:it's clearly not a simple matter of deciding to be ready to face any object...


:strawman: ?

No one made this claim, that I saw. One can't decide to be ready, but one decides to train for readiness.
"Deciding to be ready" is, indeed, the strawman that robertk, dhamma follower and pt1 would lay at the feet of those who opted to meditate.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19323
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Mon May 06, 2013 12:04 pm

daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:it's clearly not a simple matter of deciding to be ready to face any object...


:strawman: ?

No one made this claim, that I saw. One can't decide to be ready, but one decides to train for readiness.

That one cannot simply decide to be mindful, or decide to be ready to face any object seems to me to be a key point of the arguments presented in this thread.

At Tilt says, my post was a reference to the frequent statements on this thread and elsewhere, by a variety of teachers, that one cannot just will mindfulness and so on. That would be to have wrong view, and go against the teachings on anatta. Phenomena such as mindfulness arise due to causes and conditions.

[Statement of this by Ajahn Brahm: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=740#p243244]

Exactly how those conditions arise is the key question and the area of disagreement, it seems.

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10234
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Mon May 06, 2013 1:14 pm

There is such a thing as "deciding" and it is a condition. The notion that absolutely no dhammas can be conditioned as wished is silly. Every time one wishes to say something here on Dhammawheel, one has to move the fingers in a specific manner on the keyboard, in order to express what one wishes to say.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
User avatar
kirk5a
 
Posts: 1747
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Mon May 06, 2013 1:22 pm

robertk wrote:But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.

For the development of vipassana, concentration has to be developed. So how, in your view, is concentration developed?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
User avatar
kirk5a
 
Posts: 1747
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alex123, chownah, Dan74, Digity, Feathers, giomazetto and 7 guests