Contexts are either effective or ineffective, and their pragmatic value is entirley dependent upon one's purposes, aims and goals. The Buddha's path to "awakening" was intensely intellectual. There's no way he would've had so many profound things to say about the dhamma if he'd not grounded his pursuit of understanding it in his intellect.Mr Man wrote:Of course context can be wrong. The intellect is not the ground for understanding (in the case of dhamma).danieLion wrote:Contexts are neither wrong nor right.Mr Man wrote:It only lacks intellectual integrity when you put it in the wrong context.
Intellectual Integrity
Re: Intellectual Integrity
Re: Intellectual Integrity
Huh?Cittasanto wrote:then I shall simply refer you back to my previous post.
Buddhism is whatever....danieLion wrote:Cittasanto wrote:and how do you come to those conclusions?danieLion wrote:they're not conclusionsThis has all been thoroughly addressed in my repsones to polarbuddha101's questions.Cittasanto wrote:Then what are they? has your reasoning not ended up with this at this point?
To summarize: crtical thinking for the sake of intellectual integrity is not about "coming to conclusions" or "ending up at a point." "Truth" serves no definitive, absolute, ultimate telos. It's not something "out there" waiting to be discovered.
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Re: Intellectual Integrity
I think it's in the practice, not words...SDC wrote:I do not know very much about Crowley, but I give him a hell of a lot of credit, as I do many others from his era in the west, for having the guts to think outside the box when there really wasn't much there to work with. Maybe he went to the extreme, but there is definitely something there to respect...in my opinion.beeblebrox wrote:Aleister Crowley, really?
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't one of his early peers ordain in the Theravada tradition?
EDIT - Sorry for the off topic post
Daniel made a claim that Aleister made a more sophisticated treatment on the spirituality than the Buddha did.
Re: Intellectual Integrity
Yes. Crowley attributed his success with jhana, for instance, to his friend Allan Bennett's (a.k.a. Bhikkhu Ananda Metteyya's) instruction. He met him in The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. Ananda Metteyya founded (in 1903) the Buddhasasana Samagama or the International Buddhist Society in London, UK (not to be confused with the International Buddhist Society in British Columbia, Canada). Bennett later began a periodical called Buddhism: An Illustrated Review.SDC wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't one of his early peers ordain in the Theravada tradition?
See also:
The Meditations of Allan Bennett
The Bhikkhu and the Magus
Bennett's THE RELIGION OF BURMA AND OTHER PAPERS
The Influence of Buddhism on Aleister Crowley
Allan Bennett Theravada Monk and Pioneer Publisher
Buddhist Influence on Aleister Crowley
You will also find accountings of their relationship in Crowley's autohagiography, Confesssions, and in Richard Kaczynski's exhaustively researched and impeccably documented Perdurabo: The Life of Aleister Crowley.
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Re: Intellectual Integrity
In case you hadn't noticed, I passed the mark of the beast a few posts ago... you did also apparently, way ahead of me.danieLion wrote:Really.Aleister Crowley, really?
You got a problem with AC? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I bet your understanding of AC is based on propaganda you've heard about it him instead of a personal, intellectually integral inquiry into his teachings.
Re: Intellectual Integrity
Correct. However, I made this claim with several individuals, not just AC. AC demonstated ambivalence towards the teachings of the Buddha throughout his life. However, I can think of no one relgious figure that he showed more deference to than the Buddha. He found it a matter of intellectual integrity to include the aspects of Buddhism he found valid in his "system".beeblebrox wrote:Daniel made a claim that Aleister made a more sophisticated treatment on the spirituality than the Buddha did.
Re: Intellectual Integrity
Crowley said the main reason he jokingly referred to himself as "The Beast" was because that's what his mother used to call him.beeblebrox wrote:In case you hadn't noticed, I passed the mark of the beast a few posts ago... you did also apparently, way ahead of me.danieLion wrote:Really.Aleister Crowley, really?
You got a problem with AC? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I bet your understanding of AC is based on propaganda you've heard about it him instead of a personal, intellectually integral inquiry into his teachings.
- tiltbillings
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Re: Intellectual Integrity
Back to the topic, please.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Intellectual Integrity
Well if I am remembering correctly you have been rather skeptical about the historical accuracy of the Buddha story so the personalization here seems rather odd. I don't agree that "The Buddha's path to "awakening" was intensely intellectual". I don't think that there was a even a "pursuit of understanding" (intellectual).Mr Man wrote:Contexts are either effective or ineffective, and their pragmatic value is entirley dependent upon one's purposes, aims and goals. The Buddha's path to "awakening" was intensely intellectual. There's no way he would've had so many profound things to say about the dhamma if he'd not grounded his pursuit of understanding it in his intellect.danieLion wrote:
Of course context can be wrong. The intellect is not the ground for understanding (in the case of dhamma).
Re: Intellectual Integrity
Do you see the contradiction in this phrase?Mr Man wrote:...the historical accuracy of the Buddha story...
Really? Tell me more. I'm interested. Who's "personilization"? How, exactly, does it appear "odd" to you?Mr Man wrote:...so the personalization here seems rather odd.
Really? Tell me more. I'm interested. Do you think he just sat around stopping his thoughts until he experienced nibbana? How would he even know how to direct his Views, Intentions, Speech, Actions, Livelihood, Efforts, Mindfulness and Concentration without his intellect?Mr Man wrote:I don't agree that "The Buddha's path to "awakening" was intensely intellectual".
Really? Tell me more. I'm interested. How could he pursue Right View and Right Effort without his intellect?Mr Man wrote:I don't think that there was a even a "pursuit of understanding" (intellectual).
Re: Intellectual Integrity
danieLion wrote:Do you see the contradiction in this phrase?Mr Man wrote:...the historical accuracy of the Buddha story...Really? Tell me more. I'm interested. Who's "personilization"? How, exactly, does it appear "odd" to you?Mr Man wrote:...so the personalization here seems rather odd.Really? Tell me more. I'm interested. Do you think he just sat around stopping his thoughts until he experienced nibbana? How would he even know how to direct his Views, Intentions, Speech, Actions, Livelihood, Efforts, Mindfulness and Concentration without his intellect?Mr Man wrote:I don't agree that "The Buddha's path to "awakening" was intensely intellectual".Really? Tell me more. I'm interested. How could he pursue Right View and Right Effort without his intellect?Mr Man wrote:I don't think that there was a even a "pursuit of understanding" (intellectual).
I do see the contradiction and that is why I found your personalization, of the Buddha, as odd.
if we look at events leading up to Bodhi the four signs are in my opinion something that touch on an emotion level not intellectual, the angst was primordial not intellectual, the struggle was physical not intellectual, and the awakening is transcendental not intellectual.
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Re: Intellectual Integrity
danieLion wrote:Huh?Cittasanto wrote:then I shall simply refer you back to my previous post.
Buddhism is whatever....
in other words personal views, and what area is looked at changes what is seen.I think Buddhism is what it is depending on how you look at it. It can be a religion, psychology, way of life, philosophy....
I think the work of Alain debottom (sp?) is closer now, to what Buddhism was then at that time.
Studying psychology can help frame the teachings, but so can studying philosophy, theology and a number of other subjects. but no one area shows the full spectrum of the teachings.
if we only look at the psychological aspects we do not get a full picture of the phychology. the same goes for theological. it is all intertwined in the Dhammavinaya. remove one aspect and it is dislodged from other supporting structures and blurred.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: Intellectual Integrity
Ok. I'm after absolute reliability.danieLion wrote: No epistemic method is completely reliable, but it's more reliable than other methods. I'm not after absolute reliabity. I'm after understanding the teachings in terms of pragmatism, especialy the pragmatism of John Dewey, William James and Richard Rorty.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Re: Intellectual Integrity
Reasoned acceptance of a statement can turn out in one of two ways, in the course of things...
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: Intellectual Integrity
Depends on what, exactly, is meant/you mean by psychology.Cittasanto wrote:if we only look at the psychological aspects we do not get a full picture of the phychology.