Understanding Paticcasamuppada

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Sylvester
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Re: Understanding Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sylvester » Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:25 am

Looking back again at Jurewicz' essay, I note that her parody theory hinges on many correspondences she says exists between the sutta nidanas with the Vedic counterparts.

For avijja, she acknowledges that there is no avidya in the Vedas. Thus, she resorts to the mysterious state in which neither sat (Being) nor asat (Non-Being) exist, which is expressed in the Nasadiya Sukta. She equates this state as the Vedic antecedent to the Buddha's description of avijja.

Now, here's the bummer. Doubt has now been thrown on the age of the Nasadiya Sukta. It has been suggested that the Nasadiya Sukta is a very, very late addition to the Vedas, and it was composed as a reaction to the Dualism of Sankhya, during the first centuries of the Common Era. This seems to be borne out by the fact that in the Chandogya Upanishad, the zeroth point was represented not by this neither Being nor Non-Being, but by just sat/Being. At least in the Chandogya's time, the controversy was simply over whether the First was Being or Non-Being, not the neither-nor of the Nasadiya Sukta. As for the position in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, the First was simply Atman. I cite these 2 Upanishads, as there is general consensus that the Buddha was familiar with their concepts.

Jurewicz then goes on to trace the Buddhist sankhara as corresponding to the abhisamskaroti of the Satapatha Brahmana. This is a document which does not appear to be controversial and is agreed to be pre-Buddhist. I think there's some merit in the equation, as abhisamskaroti pops up many time in the Pali suttas as abhisankaroti as the verbal synonym for sankhara in discussions of DO.

If we now discount the Nasadiya Sukta as furnishing any Vedic antecedent to DO, I think we can safely say that during the Buddha's career, the First Point in Indian cosmogony was either Sat or Atman. The Buddha made 2 innovations to address the pre-Buddhist cosmogenic cycles -

1. He went further back in denying Sat/Being (see SN 12.15, where the sabbam atthi/sabbam natthi reference could have been in reference to the Chandogya debate about sat and asat) and Atman, and putting in their place avijja; and

2. Instead of the prevailing discussion of the causal structure of "this leads to that", the Buddha emphasized the "conditionality" aspect of causation by asking the negative question in analysing the reverse order of Dependant Cessation, ie "When what does not exist does X not come to be?" (SN 12.10, which interestingly took place before His awakening, perhaps suggestive of His time spent putting aside the Upanishads).

Perhaps the parody theory needs to be re-examined :stirthepot:

nowheat
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Re: Understanding Paticcasamuppada

Postby nowheat » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:39 pm


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ancientbuddhism
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Re: Understanding Paticcasamuppada

Postby ancientbuddhism » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:33 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


Sylvester
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Re: Understanding Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sylvester » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:55 pm


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ancientbuddhism
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Re: Understanding Paticcasamuppada

Postby ancientbuddhism » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:15 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


Sylvester
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Re: Understanding Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sylvester » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:16 am


Gena1480
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Re: Understanding Paticcasamuppada

Postby Gena1480 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:22 am

craving for form, there is clinging to form ,becoming of form,there is birth of form, there is origination of aging and death to form
with cessation of craving for form,there cessation of clinging to form ,with cessation of becoming of form, there is cessation of birth of form, there is cessation of aging and death of form)
with depending origination of form
the origination and cessation of form
this goes to all six types of craving for sense becoming (form sound and so on)
now with origination of form and sense, there is sense consciousness, with meeting of three, there is contact, with contact, there is craving
you can see that this cycle, which we must escape
as for existance and non existance
if we talk about cessation of feeling and perception
according to suttas
with cessation, existence does not come to mind
with origination of feeling and perception, non existence does not come to mind
in short with origination, there is no non existence
with cessation there is no existence
and according too suttas cessation of existence is unbinding
if we look at sutta
Nagara Sutta on depending origination
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
birth exist when what exist (becoming)
birth does not exist when what does not exist (becoming)
it is according to this that cessation of existence is unbinding
or in another words
when does birth cease, when becoming cease
this way you can understand cessation, cessation
when does birth arise, when becoming arise
this way you can understand arising, arising.
metta.

Sylvester
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Re: Understanding Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sylvester » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:28 am



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