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Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness - Dhamma Wheel

Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
norman
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Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby norman » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:23 pm

I appreciate that there is difficulty in translating from Pali. However these words seem very loaded and for me imply an emotional engagement with things that seems just the opposite of dispassion, observation of the way things are without judgement, letting things that arise naturally pass away again. I appreciate that I see these things arise in my mind, but do not see a need to hang on to them - or make them a special subject of contemplation. Perhaps these as contemplations are a sort of antidote to attachment to passing pleasure - to be used like medicine when necessary?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:47 pm

You raise interesting and important questions. I am not sure if this is the appropriate section this discussion, but don't worry about that. If needs be, we will move as is appropriate.

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reflection
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby reflection » Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:30 pm

Dukkha is a big problem, the thing to solve. If we would translate it with 'unsatisfactory' for example, this message may get lost a bit. But likewise, in some situations people will also misinterpret the word suffering. So what's wise?

The thing is, you'll never find accurate words to describe reality, no matter how long you try. Also if it is Pali, it still is wrong. So we could try many translations until we find one that we think suits, but still don't understand what it means. However, I think the usual translations still get quite close. During the practice we also learn more about them. When we learn how deeply suffering is ingrained within existence, the term starts to have more meaning. When you see happiness is also suffering, the term 'revulsion' also gets its strength, although it is another kind of revulsion people usually think off.

But in the end we don't need words. You can imagine how it feels like to have an ache, but now try to explain it to others.. You just won't find the words. Same with the Dhamma. The more we learn, the more we see it is not suitable to put into words.

norman
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby norman » Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:59 pm

Thanks - yes I can see that to get bogged down with words is to miss the point - and could even lead to a sort of dogmatic insistence just because it is 'in the book'. So to practice with openness to the rise and fall of 'things' - and let some sort of 'wisdom' emerge might be the way. Maybe to consciously remind oneself to be aware of others' suffering may be a good thing?

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IanAnd
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby IanAnd » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:14 pm

"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

pulga
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby pulga » Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:08 pm

I must admit that I was a bit disappointed when Ven. Bodhi adopted "revulsion" for his rendering of nibbidá in his more recent translations. But Ven. Ñanamoli lists it as an alternative rendering in his Technical Pali Dictionary, so there is probably some justification for it. Under the influence of French existentialism Ven. Ñanamoli seems to have prefered "estrangement" as a rendering, which to me seems subtle, but a little too weak. I prefer "disillusionment".

norman
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby norman » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:31 pm

Thanks very much IanAnd - that is really helpful. I watch emotions rise and fall but see no source - and indeed sense them like a sort of 'atmosphere' whose root I do not see or whose nature is unclear, although they usually connect to something tangible like an unsettling thought, or perhaps the taste of a good espresso or just the neutral pressure of a cushion. This isn't a problem - just interesting.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby Sam Vara » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:29 pm

"Revulsion" has gradually changed its meaning and has become in popular usage more like repugnance, or being revolted by something. Etymologically, it originally meant a turning or pulling away of the will. It would be good if we could keep a single noun that had this sense, and perhaps Bhikkhu Bodhi had this meaning in mind. But language changes, and I suspect this one has now long gone the way of terms like "refute" and "disinterested".

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IanAnd
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby IanAnd » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:11 am

"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

norman
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby norman » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:40 am

Thanks for pointing me to this IanAnd. I had seen this before but not really absorbed it: it seems to first recommend getting a clear view of the body, feelings and consciousness - not to force change on them but 'to the extent necessary just for knowledge and remembrance'. With mental objects there are additional things to see - for example 'he understands how the arising of the non-arisen enlightenment factor of calm comes to be and how the completion by culture of the arisen enlightenment factor of calm comes to be' - to see clearly what is conducive to the abandonment of the 'fetters' and the culture of the 'factors of enlightenment'. I'm not clear what a 'painful feeling' is really though: if I feel a sudden physical pain (for example last night I splashed some hot fat onto my hand) within a few moments it doesn't seem actually painful as such but rather a particular physical feeling in a certain place - equanimity in the face of pain perhaps - but really it seems that the pain that distresses is gone leaving just a not-unpleasant hot or stinging sensation. Consciousness /mind-state seems to me much harder to 'see' - it seems fugitive and to change/disappear so fast that I really just remember it afterwards. Anyway - I've probably wandered off-topic. I think I could do worse than just to take this sutta as a guide.
Best wishes
Norman

Just to add (from http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Dhamma) - I find this a real encouragement that it is possible in this life:
Anguttara Nikaya 11.12 The Six qualities of the Dhamma:
1. Svakkhato: The Dhamma is not a speculative philosophy, but is the Universal Law found through enlightenment and is preached precisely. Therefore it is Excellent in the beginning (Sila: Moral principles), Excellent in the middle (Samadhi: Concentration) and Excellent in the end (Panna: Wisdom),
2. Sanditthiko: The Dhamma is testable by practice and known by direct experience,
3. Akaliko: The Dhamma is able to bestow timeless and immediate results here and now, for which there is no need to wait until the future or next existence.
4. Ehipassiko: The Dhamma welcomes all beings to put it to the test and to experience it for themselves.
5. Opaneyiko: The Dhamma is capable of being entered upon and therefore it is worthy to be followed as a part of one's life.
6. Paccattam veditabbo vinnunhi: The Dhamma may be perfectly realized only by the noble disciples who have matured and enlightened enough in supreme wisdom.

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beeblebrox
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby beeblebrox » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:12 pm


norman
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby norman » Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:55 pm

For me right now 'to be' means to be detected by my senses - here and now, and with some confidence that comes from the memory of repetition and 'triangulation' (more than one sense, corroboration by other people, part of a cause-and-effect sequence etc). In that sense this 'self' that is me is - right here, right now: it can suffer and feel joy etc. Much further than this I would rather not speculate as it would just build a mountain of words. It (the self, 'me') seems just like the rest of nature - it comes to be, lasts a while / changes, disappears. I don't really want to 'feel' less - to sort of duck out of the range of experiences being alive offers, or to manipulate those feelings. To be able to see them appear and disappear does seem to of itself produce a sort of calm and happiness that is not dependant on external things - and to take away some of the fear which comes from having to defend that little 'self', and perhaps reduces the need to exploit others in that defence. I like the sutta mentioned above as it suggests a method of development which (in my view) is designed to increase awareness without using rational argument to 'win' a point and persuade.
Thanks all for your advice
Best wishes
Norman

Bakmoon
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby Bakmoon » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:26 pm

The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

pulga
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby pulga » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:20 pm


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IanAnd
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby IanAnd » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:32 pm

"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

norman
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby norman » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:30 am

IanAnd thanks again. First, you gave me a great laugh (at my own expense) when I caught myself actually congratulating myself for my 'insight' as identified by you!
That is so off track on so many grounds - the 'me/I' in there exists, but doesn't need to be made into more than it is - or less than it is. The Bahiya sutta seems a good reminder that the opportunity is here, now - and available to our ordinary senses.
There gleam no stars, no sun sheds light,
There shines no moon, yet there no darkness reigns

These are extraordinary words and seem to point into that area/space or void (if it is that) before or behind or around perception - though I am not sure that is it helpful to conceptualise like that.
I have been quite ill with flu for a week - and in a state of mental fug that precluded meditation or any clear thought. It really did feel like suffering waiting for the thing to pass and prompted repetitive thoughts of 'old age, sickness and death'.
Best wishes
Norman

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tiltbillings
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:09 pm


norman
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby norman » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:18 pm

Thanks again tiltbillings. I have just listened to Ajahn Sumedho's talk The Eight Precepts (1982) from the podcast collection 108 Talks. He offers pointers in the most undogmatic way - and encourages an open attitude to letting things (thoughts, feelings) arise - not repressing them, just observing them and not getting caught up in them.

So just to conclude (probably):
Suffering: pain exists but it is the second 'arrow' which we ourselves are responsible for that makes for suffering, and this needn't happen if one observes pain arising without making it 'mine'.
Revulsion, Loathsomeness: possibly inadequate translations as they imply (in English) a great personal involvement and identification with them.

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Dmytro
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby Dmytro » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:15 pm



norman
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Re: Suffering, revulsion, loathsomeness

Postby norman » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:09 pm

Thanks Dmytro. Some serious error that is (that we need not repeat)!
Yes - the Vipallasa Sutta again usefully points to clear 'sight'. For me this makes entire sense, and is more than compatible with living a full life.
I keep coming back to Ajahn Sumedho: in his talk Opinions (1981) he tells how stubbing his toe and the subsequent terrible infection put paid to his wish to be a hermit in an idyllic / perfect place, and how he eventually saw it clearly and was released from it (and I think this hangup that 'I can't meditate until the conditions are perfect: total silence, feeling well, confident in one's teacher etc').
I suspect that in terms of attitude to the body there is a big difference between the life of a monk and lay life: I would have thought that a celibate monk may have some problems having a cool attitude to the body, whereas a lay person as I see it can live a 'good' life provided that they avoid wrong-doing in relation to the body. After all the precepts are different - I do my best to keep to the first four which includes for lay people:
Kāmesumicchācāra veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi
(the 5th for me is only for weekdays!)
Best wishes
Norman


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