equivalent of what dogen is for soto for theravada?

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alan...
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equivalent of what dogen is for soto for theravada?

Postby alan... » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:51 am

is there an equivalent school within theravada? has there been a master who created a mass amount of writing and a school which uses his writings almost exclusively, leaving the suttas nearly totally aside?

i'm interested in any version of this, however small, but specifically i'm wondering if there is anything near the scale of soto?

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Re: equivalent of what dogen is for soto for theravada?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:05 am

while Dogen obviously did not use the Agama sutras, he certainly did reference and was very well versed in the Mahayana Sutras and the Tendai interpretation of them.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: equivalent of what dogen is for soto for theravada?

Postby alan... » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:19 am

tiltbillings wrote:while Dogen obviously did not use the Agama sutras, he certainly did reference and was very well versed in the Mahayana Sutras and the Tendai interpretation of them.


surely. but today his writings have largely replaced sutra reference in the soto school. instead of referencing meditation instructions from a sutra, many soto practitioners and teachers will reference dogen's fukan zazenji or another writing of his and so on with other specifics of the school. similar things have come about in many other schools, zen and others. for example nichiren buddhism, which may have been a better example but his complete and utter reinterpretation of the dharma is not the best comparison for the counterpart idea i'm looking for in the theravada school.

that's really beside the point, just an example. perhaps i should have worded this differently.

do you know of a theravada master whose school and teachings (specifically writings by his/her own hand) stand almost or totally independent from the pali canon? particularly on a large scale?

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Re: equivalent of what dogen is for soto for theravada?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:38 am

alan... wrote:do you know of a theravada master whose school and teachings (specifically writings by his/her own hand) stand almost or totally independent from the pali canon? particularly on a large scale?
No.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: equivalent of what dogen is for soto for theravada?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:19 pm

I thought that Theravada drew exclusively from the Pali canon and the traditional commentaries?

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Re: equivalent of what dogen is for soto for theravada?

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:35 pm

alan... wrote:do you know of a theravada master whose school and teachings (specifically writings by his/her own hand) stand almost or totally independent from the pali canon? particularly on a large scale?


It might still be Buddhism, but it wouldn't be Theravada if they rejected, did not rely on the Pali Canon. It wouldn't be the "Way of the Elders" but rather something else.

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Re: equivalent of what dogen is for soto for theravada?

Postby alan... » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:10 pm

Mawkish1983 wrote:I thought that Theravada drew exclusively from the Pali canon and the traditional commentaries?


it does usually. but every master has his own methods and interpretations and students of masters frequently do things their way, so in theory one could learn theravada from a master without much reading of suttas or commentary.

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Re: equivalent of what dogen is for soto for theravada?

Postby alan... » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:12 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
alan... wrote:do you know of a theravada master whose school and teachings (specifically writings by his/her own hand) stand almost or totally independent from the pali canon? particularly on a large scale?


It might still be Buddhism, but it wouldn't be Theravada if they rejected, did not rely on the Pali Canon. It wouldn't be the "Way of the Elders" but rather something else.


not rejecting the canon outright. just only relying on it very little and mostly using the works of a later master. so when pondering meditation instructions one would look to the masters words instead of the suttas on jhana.

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Re: equivalent of what dogen is for soto for theravada?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:24 am

Greetings Alan...,

alan... wrote:not rejecting the canon outright. just only relying on it very little and mostly using the works of a later master. so when pondering meditation instructions one would look to the masters words instead of the suttas on jhana.

There do appear to be some who seem to rely proportionally more on the commentaries (especially Buddhaghosa's "Visuddhimagga") for substantiation than the actual suttas.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: equivalent of what dogen is for soto for theravada?

Postby alan... » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:29 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Alan...,

alan... wrote:not rejecting the canon outright. just only relying on it very little and mostly using the works of a later master. so when pondering meditation instructions one would look to the masters words instead of the suttas on jhana.

There do appear to be some who seem to rely proportionally more on the commentaries (especially Buddhaghosa's "Visuddhimagga") for substantiation than the actual suttas.

Metta,
Retro. :)


lol i was going to say exactly that but i thought people would get defensive. yes since many place a ton of weight on particularly the visuddhimagga one could say that they are looking to buddhaghosa more than the buddha himself. and the same with the commentaries but they are written by more than one person i believe.

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Re: equivalent of what dogen is for soto for theravada?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:37 am

Greetings,

alan... wrote:lol i was going to say exactly that but i thought people would get defensive.

The mana would be theirs.

:geek:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)


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