Buddhism and Intellectualism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
danieLion
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Re: Buddhism and Intellectualism

Post by danieLion »

danieLion wrote:Some Buddhists, including some here at Dahmmawheel, come off to me as very anti-intellectual and at times even demonstrate some kind of ingrained provincialism.
Mr Man wrote:I think that is, genrally speaking, a misconception or a non-constructive view.

I wasn't speaking generally, but particularly. What particularly do you find misconceived and non-constructive about it?
danieLion wrote:Yet we find some Buddhists wanting to very much define themselves by partitioning themselves off into camps or clubs.
Mr Man wrote:Isn't this what you are doing?

No! I guess you only read the first half of my post you're quoting? What club or camp do you imagine I want to raise a flag for?
Mr Man wrote:My experience of Dhammawheel is that sometimes the level of intellectualism is very high, almost to the point of being intimidating.
Discussing dhamma intellectually is a very different thing form intellectualism as applied to the dhamma. The former involves the application of scientific iteration and critical thinking to discourse; the latter involves imposing pre-determined yet unverified assumptions onto dialogue.

I can see how some individuals would be intimidated by some of the more intellectual individuals here, but even the most shy minds can use the challenge as a tool for growth. Intelligence can be increased, and even the "dumbest" person has the potentioal to become "smart." We naturally avoid things we don't understand, but this is not always healthy or the wisest course of action. Of course, one probably should not go into dark tunnels, especially if one has not been there before when they are illuminated or does not carry with one a way to illuminate the passage. The choice is ultimately personal: do you want to test the veracity of your beliefs, or do you want to stay in the cozy warmth of the light, which is really no true comfort, for even sunny days can exist is the sub zeros.
danieLion
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Re: Buddhism and Intellectualism

Post by danieLion »

manas wrote: Yep...I thought I knew quite a bit about the Buddha Dhamma...and then, I found Dhamma Wheel. It's good, though, both for humility, and for making me realize that I really ought to study more; then some of the stuff I read here would not go 'whoosh' over my head.

:anjali:
:thumbsup:
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Cittasanto
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Re: Buddhism and Intellectualism

Post by Cittasanto »

Mr Man wrote:My experience of Dhammawheel is that sometimes the level of intellectualism is very high, almost to the point of being intimidating.
why do you find it like that at times?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism and Intellectualism

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote:My experience of Dhammawheel is that sometimes the level of intellectualism is very high, almost to the point of being intimidating.
why do you find it like that at times?
That can often be seen, despite the sniping, in the exchanges between Sylvester and Ñāṇa, and with some others who have a considerable command of textual knowledge and such.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
danieLion
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Re: Buddhism and Intellectualism

Post by danieLion »

manas wrote:
danieLion wrote:Is Buddhism anti-intellectual, under-intellectual, or just intellectual enough?
...Then, my intellect wants more answers than just 'it's not important knowledge, don't ponder it'! So really, it's subjective, and the mind with craving will never really be satisfied anyway, it will always find something to complain about (or is that just in my case?
I'm not sure what you mean by "subjective" but I think one can at least approximate which knowledges to grow and which knowledges to ignore using appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) (which is similar to Socrates' lifelong goal to pursue wisdom where wisdom is defined as the capacity for sound judgment).
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Mr Man
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Re: Buddhism and Intellectualism

Post by Mr Man »

Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote:My experience of Dhammawheel is that sometimes the level of intellectualism is very high, almost to the point of being intimidating.
why do you find it like that at times?
Cittasanto, sorry but I'm not going to answer your question directly but I would add that I agree with sentiment of manas that I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism and Intellectualism

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote: Cittasanto, sorry but I'm not going to answer your question directly but I would add that I agree with sentiment of manas that I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing.
It is not necessarily a bad thing, though the arcana of some discussions can be bewildering.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Cittasanto
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Re: Buddhism and Intellectualism

Post by Cittasanto »

Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote:My experience of Dhammawheel is that sometimes the level of intellectualism is very high, almost to the point of being intimidating.
why do you find it like that at times?
Cittasanto, sorry but I'm not going to answer your question directly but I would add that I agree with sentiment of manas that I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing.
Quite liked his comment.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Mr Man
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Re: Buddhism and Intellectualism

Post by Mr Man »

Cittasanto wrote: Quite liked his comment.
Yes
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Mr Man
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Re: Buddhism and Intellectualism

Post by Mr Man »

danieLion wrote:
danieLion wrote:Some Buddhists, including some here at Dahmmawheel, come off to me as very anti-intellectual and at times even demonstrate some kind of ingrained provincialism.
Mr Man wrote:I think that is, genrally speaking, a misconception or a non-constructive view.

I wasn't speaking generally, but particularly. What particularly do you find misconceived and non-constructive about it?
Hi danielLion.
I think it is misconceived because I don't really think it is possible to negate ones own intellectuality It is just that different peoples intellectuality manifests or goes or has been developed in different directions. I think it is non-constructive as per the Sutta quoted by David N. Snyder
danieLion wrote:
danieLion wrote:Yet we find some Buddhists wanting to very much define themselves by partitioning themselves off into camps or clubs.
Mr Man wrote:Isn't this what you are doing?

No! I guess you only read the first half of my post you're quoting? What club or camp do you imagine I want to raise a flag for?

I read the whole post and I wasn't assigning you to a particular camp.
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DNS
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Re: Buddhism and Intellectualism

Post by DNS »

(To generalize) many Zen traditions are seen as anti-intellectual and the Far East traditions are sometimes seen as anti-intellectual. Zen because of the use of art, work (wax-on, wax-off), koans, poetry, which is to go beyond thinking and studying, for a direct approach to enlightenment. The Far East schools such as Pure Land in the belief that enlightenment is too difficult in this era.

Theravada is probably one of the more intellectual schools of Buddhism, with our Abhidhamma, Visudhimagga, and veneration of the written Pali Canon. As Bhikkhu Pesala pointed out in this thread: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=16391" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; those who attained enlightenment rather quickly such as Bahiya had gained much mindfulness and advancement in previous lives. It is not likely any of us could gain enlightenment so quickly just by washing a cloth, repeating a mantra, or washing dishes. If intellectualism refers to reading and studying the Pali Canon, then there certainly can be no harm in that and only everything to gain. We don't need to be experts in Pali (although it doesn't hurt), nor do we need to memorize texts, but a good grasp of the material in the Pali Canon is very helpful, in my opinion.
rohana
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Re: Buddhism and Intellectualism

Post by rohana »

It can take a wide spectrum - from very little intellectualism to a lot, and you can pretty much choose material by teachers from anywhere in the spectrum. Ajahn Cha's teachings, for example, are very down-to-earth, whereas Venerable Ñānānanda's writings are towards the other end of the spectrum.

But for those of us who prefer the more intellectual end of the spectrum, I think there is a danger of pride ("my teachings are better than your teachings") and a danger of getting trapped in an intellectual thicket of papañca. I've also seen people saying they prefer Mahāyāna texts because the Pāli canon is "too simplistic" for them, and I think it's the same kind of sentiment that's behind it - i.e. an attraction to any text/teaching that seems 'intellectual' on the surface, and seeing any 'simple teaching' as not worthy of attention.
"Delighting in existence, O monks, are gods and men; they are attached to existence, they revel in existence. When the Dhamma for the cessation of existence is being preached to them, their minds do not leap towards it, do not get pleased with it, do not get settled in it, do not find confidence in it. That is how, monks, some lag behind."
- It. p 43
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Buddhism and Intellectualism

Post by m0rl0ck »

tiltbillings wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote: For instance, many "buddhists" are materialists who just repaint their western intellectual materialism a nice buddhist saffron color and then carry on with business as usual.
And you know this how?
From reading this board and others of its kind.

EDIT: Also it seems to be present in modern buddhist literature. I remember hearing a "dharma" talk by stephen batchelor where he spent as much time talking about freud and jung as about buddhism. He seemed to me to demonstrate a complete ignorance of the fact that worshiping at the altar of freud and jung and clutching at western intellectualism was part of the problem not part of the solution.
Oddly enough, i dont see much of this in the buddhists i have known IRL.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism and Intellectualism

Post by tiltbillings »

m0rl0ck wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote: For instance, many "buddhists" are materialists who just repaint their western intellectual materialism a nice buddhist saffron color and then carry on with business as usual.
And you know this how?
From reading this board and others of its kind.

EDIT: Also it seems to be present in modern buddhist literature. I remember hearing a "dharma" talk by stephen batchelor where he spent as much time talking about freud and jung as about buddhism. He seemed to me to demonstrate a complete ignorance of the fact that worshiping at the altar of freud and jung and clutching at western intellectualism was part of the problem not part of the solution.
Oddly enough, i dont see much of this in the buddhists i have known IRL.
Yes, well, you referenced one author and this forum. Not a convincing argument for saying "many." Let me ask you, am i one of those dreaded materialists?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Buddhism and Intellectualism

Post by m0rl0ck »

tiltbillings wrote:Yes, well, you referenced one author and this forum. Not a convincing argument for saying "many." Let me ask you, am i one of those dreaded materialists?
:D Not that i can tell, no.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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