clinging of becoming

[convivium]

what would a world without akusala bhava tanha look like? what would people look like? what would they do or not do that they do now?

[ground]

Empty of human life.

[convivium]

i mean a world of humans without bhava tanha

[convivium]

what would a society of arahats look like for that matter?

[Sam Vara]

what would a society of arahats look like for that matter?

It might look like a well-run monastery, or a retreat. But what arahants look like , either individually or collectively, is not the most important thing about them, so people have not done much imagining around this topic.

[Gena1480]

clinging is one condition
becoming is another condition
there is three types of becoming
"And what is becoming? These three are becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming.(non becoming is a type of craving)
there is four types of clinging.
"And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
what do you mean when you say clinging of becoming?
here in this depending origination explination
it covers only craving for sense becoming( the six types of craving)
it does not cover other types of craving
as in the sutta Dhammacakkappavattana
which cover craving in more detail.
the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e.,
craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.
it is the same craving that when not abandon gives rise to suffering
it is the same craving that when abandon ends suffering
and what craving that is not abandon, it is the craving that makes for further becoming, accompanied by passion,delight,relishing now here, now there.
and with remainders cessation of craving, the unarisen does not arise (clinging) and when there is not of this clinging, there is not of this becoming,
and arisen is abandon (craving), and wit remaindless cessation of the craving, there is cessation of the clinging.
here is why the cessation is often refers to unbinging
metta

[convivium]

i think i was mixed up.
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Bhava-tanha
the first response clarified that this was what bhava tanha refers to (clinging to existence). the second response reminded me of something i read which said that once you attain the third path, you 'have' to leave the world for a monastery. i take becoming (in the way that humans, but not animals can have it), in one sense, to mean wanting to be something one is not. so it's sort of craving or aversion tied to identity view. that was my initial (naive) meaning. the third response seems the most interesting could we define the following:

sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming.(non becoming is a type of craving)
there is four types of clinging, sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging.

?
that's where i need to start in understanding the third response.

[Gena1480]

as i said before i'm looking my self
how this conditions work
you and i are looking for samething
but if anyone can point us in direction
where conditions are explain in detail
as each condition is different
all i can tell you that i'm suffering from clinging to sensuality
my mind is sick with seeing good as bad and bad as good
this is a form of delusion and wrong view
this fermentation of sensuality is the most discussing thing
sometimes i have moment where i actually see this habit
but seeing this habit gives a momentary seeing through the delusion
i live in a apartment and surrounded by environment with sensuality
i can't seem to catch this arising so i can abandon it for good.
it will probably take years of going against this habbit.
this is a wrong inclination of household life.
it is difficult to practice, but slowly i'm suffering less
when i built enough sila and concentration.
i was not a good person when i was young and made some(let just say bad kamma)
believe me when the breakthrough comes i'll be out of here or i will die.
i thought i will be out of here but some how i did not see the cessation of perception and feeling.
i have died and dam back (talking about believing in rebirth).
next time i'm hopping i will be out of here for good. or if i listen to good instructions i should develop compassion for later generation.
i want to discern what is compassion but until i discern it, i will have to caltuvated it.
if i don't make it with my plans you know, let the death make plans for me.
this seeing the deathless through death is one of the practices.
and it is a pleasure talking to you, since they call my crazy at my household.

[convivium]

i don't think the enlightened people think about rebirth the way ordinary people do. nor do i think they think about sensuality in the way ordinary people do. but i don't think enlightened people think or experience anything the way ordinary people do. so it's hard to not to be deluded about enlightenment when we conceive and experience things in an ordinary way. everything like sila, restraint and samadhi are just tools. the path is fabricated but the enlightened mind isn't. so don't worry too much (in a way that weighs you down) about the fabrications on the path to enlightenment but don't abandon them because that's all we have to get 'there'.

[ground]

i mean a world of humans without bhava tanha

Impossible. No evolution without bhava tanha.

[Gena1480]

sensuality is suffering
dangerous
and brings a lot of pain
i'm investigation the experience of cessation of fabrication
reflections
seeing self is not outside
seeing self is not inside
with the verbal fabrication by the verbal fabrication
the verbal fabrication show me the same thing, but in a different words, understanding did not change
seeing this.
they cease, there was intention to think, but no thinking was there.
now i have not seen this with cessation of body fabrication
my mental fabrication i was not able to see cessation of mental fabrication
but i did see that my heart start to beat again and i did not see the origination of verbal fabrication.
so after investigation this i did not die, it is similar to death experience.
as you know i'm slowly trying to be trained in dhamma and disciple.

[ground]

i mean a world of humans without bhava tanha

Impossible. No evolution without bhava tanha.

Or you mean that once humans and human culture have evolved all of a sudden bhava tanha stops? Well then human culture - and consequently the probability of survival - would decline naturally but rather fast because their would be no efforts of maintenance and/or further development.

[convivium]

it's sort of a logical question, more than an empirical question (so thanks for entertaining it). if we all became living arahats (without e.g. bhava tanha) you think that human culture (you'd have to explain exactly what you mean by this) would die off (at least till the next generation).
i think we would be able to create a new culture. i think the basic structure of societies would change drastically. i think we would revert to pre-civilization manners of survival. no one would give alms, but the earth would. we might have to work a little, and might be more vulnerable to attack from other animals, disease, etc. but we would let ourselves face this latent kamma or whatever. then the next generation would live in a very interesting point in history...

[convivium]

with the verbal fabrication by the verbal fabrication
the verbal fabrication show me the same thing, but in a different words, understanding did not change
seeing this.

what do you mean by verbal fabrication?

[Gena1480]

with the verbal fabrication by the verbal fabrication.
by the verbal fabrication
i mean that the same verbal fabrication that try to trick me that what it is showing me
is something differing, upon seeing this, i used the exact words this is samething,
thinking in verbal thoughts
so what gave rise (in this case) verbal fabrication
that gave cease (in this case)verbal fabrication.
kamma sustain itself by showing the new arising
seeing this arising as for what ever was there, it ceases.
from the suttas having been there, they cease.
same goes for body fabrication and mental fabrication.
i have not experience this yet, i can't say that i will experience same thing with other fabrication
if that path will progress this way.
i have no doubt that body fabrication and mental fabrication cease same way
with the body fabrication, by the body fabrication
same goes for mental fabrication.
i don't think i should speak any further on this.

[convivium]

thanks for your response.

[convivium]

sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming.(non becoming is a type of craving)
there is four types of clinging, sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging.

can someone define these? thanks