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Some dangerously misleading New Age thinking

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:19 am
by manas
Hi all,

I came across this video while searching for something else, but watched it anyway out of curiosity. The so called 'Law of Attraction' is a very popular New Age belief, and I wonder how one could respond to someone who espoused this philosophy (assuming they were willing to engage in a civil discussion).




The basic gist of it I think, is that our own consciousness sends out it's beliefs about life and reality as it pertains to us personally, and that the 'Universe' then sends our own volitions back in the form of our unfolding 'life'. So, all of our good and bad experiences are not due to the ripening of past thoughts, speech and actions, but rather, are being created by us ourselves, by the particular 'signal' we keep broadcasting out (according to this dodgy philosophy). By the way, they say that we are not always aware of our core beliefs, which nevertheless get broadcasted out and become our reality, because our consciousness goes much deeper than what we can overtly see in day to day life (that bit may be correct, because it's true that we are not aware of the entire contents of the mind at all times; it takes a lot of meditation and purification to be able to see the mind more fully, but) - I can see a few dangerous ideas spouted in the video - particularly the one about there being no fixed, absolute standard about what is right and wrong - but I was wondering, how could we help someone who had been seduced by this? It's quite common nowadays.

Re: Some dangerously misleading New Age thinking

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:29 am
by BlackBird
I don't think it's 100% wrong. As the Buddha says - Kamma is intention. If you intend your mind in a certain direction, you will get corresponding results. But it's certainly not like you can build a cardboard 'dream wall' and fill it with cars and mansions and beautiful women and expect it all to come your way since you want it to be that way. The Secret is a bit of a sham, given. But the kind of vibes you send out do have an influence on what happens to you.

Challenging new age thinkers with logic has never been a very effective tool, since they tend to to eschew it in the first place to take up such mystical fluffy beliefs. But if they're a rational thinker, I would look at talking of the more ridiculous elements of the 'law of attraction' and at least get them to consider that it may not be true. Bringing them back from blind faith driven absolutism to a healthy agnosticism is probably the best you can achieve with some people, or if they're anything like my mum (who was a firm believer in the secret for a while) you just have to give it time, and eventually they forget all about it.

metta
Jack

Re: Some dangerously misleading New Age thinking

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:30 am
by Alex123
One could say that "why things that we want do not happen and what we don't want happen."

But I am sure that person could reply simply that "one didn't want it hard enough." and this cannot be refuted...


There is even worse belief: If you think positevely, you can eat whatever unhealthy food you want and it will all be OK. Just be positive!

Re: Some dangerously misleading New Age thinking

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:42 am
by manas
BlackBird wrote:I don't think it's 100% wrong. As the Buddha says - Kamma is intention. If you intend your mind in a certain direction, you will get corresponding results. But it's certainly not like you can build a cardboard 'dream wall' and fill it with cars and mansions and beautiful women and expect it all to come your way since you want it to be that way. The Secret is a bit of a sham, given. But the kind of vibes you send out do have an influence on what happens to you.

Challenging new age thinkers with logic has never been a very effective tool, since they tend to to eschew it in the first place to take up such mystical fluffy beliefs. But if they're a rational thinker, I would look at espousing the more ridiculous elements of the 'law of attraction' and at least get them to consider that it may not be true. Bringing them back from blind faith driven absolutism to a healthy agnostiscism is probably the best you can achieve with some people, or if they're anything like my mum (who was a firm believer in the secret for a while) you just have to give it time, and eventually they forget all about it.

metta
Jack
Well said, Jack. Sounds like you also have seen it first hand (fluffy New Age thinking). I used to go to places where it was abundant. Some of them were very nice, helpful people by the way. But let's just say that sense restraint wasn't a strong point for them (nor was it for me at that time either though...) :toilet:

:anjali:

Re: Some dangerously misleading New Age thinking

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:00 am
by manas
Alex123 wrote:One could say that "why things that we want do not happen and what we don't want happen."

But I am sure that person could reply simply that "one didn't want it hard enough." and this cannot be refuted...


There is even worse belief: If you think positevely, you can eat whatever unhealthy food you want and it will all be OK. Just be positive!
Someone I know once dismissed my version of rebirth according to kamma and that past kamma can still have a bearing on the present no matter how positively we think right now, as 'old world thinking'. lol.

I am reminded of Venerable Moggalana, one of the two chief disciples. His mind must have surely been broadcasting more love out to the world than anyone alive on this Earth today. And yet, despite the vastness of his merit and positive volitions (and utterly purified mind), near the end of his life he was sadly beaten (almost to the point of death) by bandits - while an arahant. Whether or not this story actually happened or not, it seems to instruct us that no-one, not even the most purified person, is *completely* exempt from experiencing the results of previous unwholesome actions, even if they were performed many, many births ago. (am I understanding this correctly?)

:anjali:

Re: Some dangerously misleading New Age thinking

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:26 am
by BlackBird
manas wrote: (am I understanding this correctly?)
Perfectly.

Re: Some dangerously misleading New Age thinking

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:00 am
by Mojo
BlackBird wrote:I don't think it's 100% wrong. As the Buddha says - Kamma is intention. If you intend your mind in a certain direction, you will get corresponding results. But it's certainly not like you can build a cardboard 'dream wall' and fill it with cars and mansions and beautiful women and expect it all to come your way since you want it to be that way. The Secret is a bit of a sham, given. But the kind of vibes you send out do have an influence on what happens to you.
Pretty much the way I feel about it as well.

Mojo

Re: Some dangerously misleading New Age thinking

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:28 pm
by Spiny Norman
BlackBird wrote:Challenging new age thinkers with logic has never been a very effective tool, since they tend to to eschew it in the first place to take up such mystical fluffy beliefs.
Unfortunately that's been my experience too. What I've found particularly frustrating on occasion is the inability or unwillingness to clearly explain jargon.

Re: Some dangerously misleading New Age thinking

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:47 pm
by BlackBird
porpoise wrote:
BlackBird wrote:Challenging new age thinkers with logic has never been a very effective tool, since they tend to to eschew it in the first place to take up such mystical fluffy beliefs.
Unfortunately that's been my experience too. What I've found particularly frustrating on occasion is the inability or unwillingness to clearly explain jargon.
Perhaps because they themselves do not understand it? I find that is often a symptom of those drawn to mysticism, instead of seeking to explain and understand, they are quite content wallowing in ignorance of a matter for as long as they don't understand it, it can continue to hold a magical power. The pleasure for them is in the non-understanding.

Re: Some dangerously misleading New Age thinking

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:14 pm
by Alex123
manas wrote: I am reminded of Venerable Moggalana, one of the two chief disciples. His mind must have surely been broadcasting more love out to the world than anyone alive on this Earth today. And yet, despite the vastness of his merit and positive volitions (and utterly purified mind), near the end of his life he was sadly beaten (almost to the point of death) by bandits - while an arahant. Whether or not this story actually happened or not, it seems to instruct us that no-one, not even the most purified person, is *completely* exempt from experiencing the results of previous unwholesome actions, even if they were performed many, many births ago. (am I understanding this correctly?)

:anjali:
Good point. Also, the Buddha himself experienced "sharp and racking pains" and even had attempt on his life (by Devadatta). Decadatta tried to throw a big rock at the Buddha, but even though he missed, a sharp splinter came from a rock and hurt Buddha's foot to the point of blood.

Re: Some dangerously misleading New Age thinking

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:04 pm
by Mr Man
BlackBird wrote:
porpoise wrote:
BlackBird wrote:Challenging new age thinkers with logic has never been a very effective tool, since they tend to to eschew it in the first place to take up such mystical fluffy beliefs.
Unfortunately that's been my experience too. What I've found particularly frustrating on occasion is the inability or unwillingness to clearly explain jargon.
Perhaps because they themselves do not understand it? I find that is often a symptom of those drawn to mysticism, instead of seeking to explain and understand, they are quite content wallowing in ignorance of a matter for as long as they don't understand it, it can continue to hold a magical power. The pleasure for them is in the non-understanding.
Do you think it is different with Theravada Buddhists?

Re: Some dangerously misleading New Age thinking

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:15 pm
by Polar Bear
Do you think it is different with Theravada Buddhists?
I would gander that for some it isn't and for some it is.

(Edit: Just to clarify I'm not talking about the difference between secular and traditional buddhists. I'm just saying that I imagine that at least some theravada buddhists like to throw around jargon and profess things without understanding what they're talking about)

Re: Some dangerously misleading New Age thinking

Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:06 pm
by Spiny Norman
Mr Man wrote:
BlackBird wrote:
porpoise wrote:Unfortunately that's been my experience too. What I've found particularly frustrating on occasion is the inability or unwillingness to clearly explain jargon.
Perhaps because they themselves do not understand it? I find that is often a symptom of those drawn to mysticism, instead of seeking to explain and understand, they are quite content wallowing in ignorance of a matter for as long as they don't understand it, it can continue to hold a magical power. The pleasure for them is in the non-understanding.
Do you think it is different with Theravada Buddhists?
I haven't found Theravada Buddhists to be all that mystical. ;)

Re: Some dangerously misleading New Age thinking

Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:54 pm
by Mr Man
Hi porpoise
What does the wink mean. Does it mean the proceeding statement is meant as a joke? Thanks :smile:

Re: Some dangerously misleading New Age thinking

Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:28 pm
by Spiny Norman
Mr Man wrote:Hi porpoise
What does the wink mean. Does it mean the proceeding statement is meant as a joke? Thanks :smile:
Sorry, I can see I in hindsight I was being a bit obscure - it was intended as a reference to the ongoing debate between traditionalists and secularists within Theravada.
By all means read it without the wink.