S.N Goenka

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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:42 pm

VM jhana vs sutta jhana are entirely different descriptions. vipassana only schools contradict the suttas directly.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:44 pm

mogok, mahasi, u bah khin, and pa auk (the leading teachers/lineages in burma) each fall in one of these two categories
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby Ben » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:44 pm

With respect, I don't think you know what you are talking about.
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:48 pm

yeah i do.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:49 pm

While it is clear that there are a variety of opinions on how to interpret the Buddha-Dhamma, it seems rather odd to claim that those who follow the Theravada Commentaries are "not Theravada". That is, after all, what defines Theravada (as opposed to the various other ancient schools and modern interpretations...).

:anjali:
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:51 pm

i don't disagree with that at all. but i'll mention that most all the contemplations and recollections are missing.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:58 pm

and all the possible objects of meditation that might work better for certain people are ruled out.
the teachings are depersonalized (the at's can only say certain things), literally mechanized, and moreover can make you lose yourself too quickly (possibly before you have a self).
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby vidar » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:59 pm

that's the regional expert on theravada buddhism's (ajahn thanissaro's) statement, based on what is in the suttas.

Really? in that case I prefer the scholar expert on theravada buddhism's (Ven. Analayo) statement, based on what is in the suttas and also in the chinese Agamas parallels :tongue:

burmese theravada = typically commentarial and sub-commentarial (sometimes in contradiction to the suttas e.g. when it comes to right concentration)

About that, here is another recent article of Ven. Analayo of the three more popular insight meditation approaches (Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw, S.N. Goenka and Pa Auk) and the relation of this meditation methods with the early discourses in the pali Nikayas and some very important medieval treatises ( The Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha, the Visuddhimagga, the Vimuttimagga and the Paṭisambhidāmagga):

http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... nsight.pdf
All the world is on fire, All the world is burning, All the world is ablaze, All the world is quaking. That which does not quake or blaze, That to which worldlings do not resort, Where there is no place for Mara:That is where my mind delights. (SN 5.7)

By degrees, little by little,
from moment to moment,
the wise purify themselves,
as a smith purifies silver.
—Dhammapada 239
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:02 pm

i don't* think thanissaro would disagree with that statement. but it's not a comprehensive statement. a grain of sand is part of a beach. mcdonalds is part of burger selling.
Last edited by convivium on Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:07 pm

convivium wrote:yeah i do.
No, you really do not know of what you speak.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:09 pm

the burden of proof is on you at this point.
show me how this is wrong:
VM jhana vs sutta jhana are entirely different descriptions. vipassana only schools contradict the suttas directly.
or how these schools are exempt from both of these things.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby Ben » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:12 pm

[quote="convivium"]the burden of proof is on you at this point.
quote]

No, I don't think it is.
You have not shown that what SN Goenka teaches is not Theravada.
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:15 pm

i never argued for that point.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby vidar » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:16 pm

In response to the question in the OP, here is the conclusion of the article The Development Of Insight (Ven. Analayo) about the S.N. Goenka meditation method in relation with the Nikayas:

In sum, the foregoing has shown how key aspects of the development of
insight delineated in the early discourses could be approached through modern
day Theravada meditation practice as exemplified in the U Ba Khin vipassana
tradition, taught by S.N. Goenka.
A description of the actual technique of gradually scanning the body as such,
however, does not seem to be found in the discourses. In fact, when describing
the experience of dissolution of the body and the mind, the instructions given
during a vipassana course taught by S.N. Goenka employ terms like kalapa or
bhavaga, which appear to stem from a later period than the early discourses.
The same is true of other modern day vipassana meditation traditions, whose
techniques as such cannot be found in the early discourses and which draw upon
the fully developed Theravada system, using terminology that came into use
considerably later.
Nevertheless, such modern practices do seem to present viable modes of implementing
the instructions on the development of insight found in the early discourses.

In as much as they conform to the basic pattern laid out for the practice
of insight by giving importance to a direct experience of the three characteristics,
they can rightfully lay a claim to being in accordance with the original instructions.
In fact, the generality of the instructions found in the early discourses in away leaves it up to practitioners to develop their own more precise methods of
putting those instructions into practice, thereby enabling them to proceed on the
path to awakening in the way best suited to their own particular capacities and
proclivities. In the end, it is precisely this that really counts, namely that one actually
walks the path to awakening.
All the world is on fire, All the world is burning, All the world is ablaze, All the world is quaking. That which does not quake or blaze, That to which worldlings do not resort, Where there is no place for Mara:That is where my mind delights. (SN 5.7)

By degrees, little by little,
from moment to moment,
the wise purify themselves,
as a smith purifies silver.
—Dhammapada 239
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:30 pm

show me that requiring students leave out all the other objects, recollections and contemplations (other than vedananupassana, a limited form of anapanasati, and metta) from their practice is theravada buddhism.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby Ben » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:33 pm

convivium wrote:show me that requiring students leave out all the other objects, recollections and contemplations (other than vedananupassana, a limited form of anapanasati, and metta) from their practice is theravada buddhism.


Show me that he doesn't teach the recollections and contemplations..
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:38 pm

for example, 32 parts isn't taught. you aren't allowed to practice 32 parts.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby Ben » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:44 pm

In the introductory ten-day course.
How do you know that he doesn't teach them at all to his more experienced students?
The fact is, your knowledge is limited to what is presented in the ten-day course which he says himself is "the kindergarten of Dhamma" and that what he teaches is gradual, step-by-step.
If you don't like his approach - fine, do something else that is more appropriate to your needs.
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby convivium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:47 pm

if you have done the longer courses you would know that he doesn't teach 32 parts. it's an introductory sort of practice.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: S.N Goenka

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:49 pm

There are a great many practices which could fall under "Theravada". How many would a teacher have to incorporate to be a "Teacher of Theravada"? I think we might be able to disqualify most if not all of them with this criteria.

Please dont answer this question... It is rhetorical.

It takes some intelligence to look at the principles involved in order to see congruity. The approach might be limited but if they are I am sure Goenka had his reasons. All teaching has its own context and I am personally grateful for Goenka. Not because I have ever been to any of the retreats or even studied any of his material but because I have studied with people who say they learned a great deal from them. That is how it is. Not every approach is necessary but it is up to each of us to find some we have confidence in and pursue them until we either lose confidence or get enlightened.
Last edited by Prasadachitta on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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