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What is "the deathless"?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:38 pm
by m0rl0ck
I see this term used in ways that make me think that its definition is similiar to "awareness" the way the tibetans use it, or "true nature" or "Mind" the way the zennies use it, or "emptiness" the way it used in mahayana, that is as a positive something that might be better called everythingness.
Then again, i see most of the concepts above refuted and picked apart. So what do theravadans mean when they refer to "the deathless".

Re: What is "the deathless"?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:49 pm
by Samma
Its one of many synonyms for nibanna. I'd guess that it comes from description of death as experienced by a tathagata:

Death as experienced by a Tathagata is described simply as, ‘All this, no longer
being relished, grows cold right here.’ All attempts to describe the experience of
nibbana or the state of the Tathagata after death—as existing, not existing, both,
or neither—are refuted by the Buddha (Thanissaro, Mind life fire)

Re: What is "the deathless"?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:02 pm
by m0rl0ck
Samma wrote:Its one of many synonyms for nibanna. I'd guess that it comes from description of death as experienced by a tathagata:

Death as experienced by a Tathagata is described simply as, ‘All this, no longer
being relished, grows cold right here.’ All attempts to describe the experience of
nibbana or the state of the Tathagata after death—as existing, not existing, both,
or neither—are refuted by the Buddha (Thanissaro, Mind life fire)
So then a stream enterer has seen nibbana?

Re: What is "the deathless"?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:03 pm
by Aloka
In his book "The Sound of Silence" Ajahn Sumedho described "the Deathless" as "the unconditioned". It doesn't mean anything to do with physical death. I think it was also called "'Unconditioned awareness"

Its also described in more detail with quotes from the suttas in "The Island - An anthology of the Buddha's teachings on Nibanna " by Ajahn Pasanno & Ajahn Amaro.

http://forestsanghapublications.org/vie ... 10&ref=deb

.

Re: What is "the deathless"?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:05 pm
by manas
Hi Morlock,
examining this excerpt
"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
It appears to me that the property of deathlessness has been given synonyms that describe it: "the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding." So maybe it's simply the state of the arahant, freed from craving, clinging etc., that state of freedom in the here-and-now that, while an experienced reality for the arahant, lies beyond the range of words and concepts and can't be pinned down. So from this shore, we can try to find a word or concept to express it positively, but will not be able to, and so only negating descriptions can be used: the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding." Because on this side, those qualities (such as craving, clinging etc) can be known and described by us, so they form the only reference point we've got, in describing something that is beyond all words and concepts.

That's my take on it, but if I've misrepresented anything, someone please let me know.

manas :anjali:

Re: What is "the deathless"?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:06 pm
by m0rl0ck
Aloka wrote:In his book "The Sound of Silence" Ajahn Sumedho described "the Deathless" as "the unconditioned"



.
Thats helpful, thank you.

Re: What is "the deathless"?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:07 pm
by tiltbillings

Re: What is "the deathless"?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:08 pm
by m0rl0ck
manas wrote:


That's my take on it, but if I've misrepresented anything, someone please let me know.

manas :anjali:
Good stuff ty :)

Re: What is "the deathless"?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:16 pm
by Samma
m0rl0ck wrote: So then a stream enterer has seen nibbana?
[Immediately after attaining the stream] Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Your faculties are bright, my friend; your complexion pure & clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have..."
— Mv I.23.5
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... tream.html
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 59&start=0

Re: What is "the deathless"?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:29 pm
by Aloka
There's this sutta:

SN 47.41 Amata Sutta: Deathless

At Savatthi

"Monks, remain with your minds well-established in the four establishings of mindfulness. Don't let the deathless be lost to you.

"In which four? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world.

"Monks, remain with your minds well-established in these four establishings of mindfulness. Don't let the deathless be lost to you."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Re: What is "the deathless"?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:26 pm
by ancientbuddhism
‘deathless’ (amaro) was also an epithet for the ātman of the Upaniṣads:
  • sa vāeṣa nahān ajātmā, ajaro, amaro’ mṛto’bhayo brahma; abhayaṃ vai brahma, abhyaṃ hi vai brahma bhavati ya avaṃ veda. || Bṛhad-āraṇyaka Upaniṣad IV. 4.25 ||

    “This is that great unborn Self who is undecaying, undying, immortal, fearless, Brahman. Verily, Brahman is fearless. He who knows this becomes the fearless Brahman.”

    (Translation by Ś. Radhakrisnan The Principle Upaniṣads)
This may be one of many instances where the Buddha punned on the epithets of ātmavāda contemporary to him.

Re: What is "the deathless"?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:35 pm
by reflection
Good replies already.

As (if I remember correctly) Tilt quite well explained in the topic he posted, the Deathless is not a thing or a state or something like that, but just to describe the "no more dying", freedom from death. It's a simile for parinibbana. Although in the suttas it may also be used as a simile for nibbana with life remaining, I'm not sure. Still, it would refer to the same.

It does describe the absence of something rather than the presence. Like we could say going on pension is 'the jobless'.

Re: What is "the deathless"?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:57 pm
by manas
reflection wrote:It does describe the absence of something rather than the presence. Like we could say going on pension is 'the jobless'.
I haven't just seen 'the jobless state', I've attained it. My problem is in trying to get back to what I had before. :|

But I like the analogy :)

metta :anjali:

Re: What is "the deathless"?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:01 pm
by reflection
Dang, left a loophole ;)

Hope you find your way out of the jobless soon!

Re: What is "the deathless"?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:38 pm
by kirk5a
"There is the case, Ananda, where a disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable; perceptions of the dimension of nothingness; perceptions of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception: that is an identity, to the extent that there is an identity. This is deathless: the liberation of the mind through lack of clinging/sustenance.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html