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Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:52 am
by BlackBird
Hi all

I can't seem to find my copy of Ven. Analayo's Satipatthana book. I can't remember whether I just misplaced it or whether I left it in Wellington or whether I gave it away. I came across a pdf on scribd, and I'm wondering if it's a violation of the 2nd precept for me to download it given that I've purchased multiple copies of it in past?

It would seem to me that it would not violate the spirit of the 2nd precept, but would it violate the letter?

Looking forward to your responses.

metta
Jack

Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:04 am
by Modus.Ponens
Neither the letter nor the spirit. The spirit you said so yourself. The letter, no because you are not taking away an object that belongs to a person to keep it to yourself, depriving that person from the usage and ownership of the object. You are copying the object, leaving that person with the original object to herself.

Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:13 am
by marc108
BlackBird wrote:Hi all

I can't seem to find my copy of Ven. Analayo's Satipatthana book. I can't remember whether I just misplaced it or whether I left it in Wellington or whether I gave it away.
I came across a pdf on scribd, and I'm wondering if it's a violation of the 2nd precept for me to download it given that I've purchased multiple copies of it in past?

It would seem to me that it would not violate the spirit of the 2nd precept, but would it violate the letter?

Looking forward to your responses.

metta
Jack
you can borrow mine, just pm me your address.

Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:47 am
by Buckwheat
Modus.Ponens wrote:Neither the letter nor the spirit. The spirit you said so yourself. The letter, no because you are not taking away an object that belongs to a person to keep it to yourself, depriving that person from the usage and ownership of the object. You are copying the object, leaving that person with the original object to herself.
Not everybody would agree with that analysis.

Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:38 am
by Reductor
I've thought about this whole electronic property stuff, and I just don't have a certain answer; I would suggest, however, that, because you have paid for the material in the past and so have remunerated the publisher for their costs, you're not doing any real harm in downloading an electronic version now.

Secondly, the Venerable would likely not mind if you had an electronic copy of his material, seeing as it is dhamma and he's in the habit of being open handed with that stuff. Actually, this point should be firstly, and the point above should be secondly.

This argument is not water tight, as it could be seen that you're depriving the publisher of potential earnings. But to me this is silly, and to allow it to stand would allow us to be forced to make all kinds of purchases we just don't want. "Buy this TV", "No, I don't need it.", "Buy it, or you're depriving us our earnings and will be taken to court." :tongue:

Anyway, that's all I got right now.

Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:56 am
by Samma
The Corporate Body of the Buddha Educational Foundation has a copy up. I'm assuming they got permission, but who knows. Well, they are giving it away... Be a generous person, don't cause harm, don't sweat this small stuff.
http://www.budaedu.org/ebooks/6-EN.php

Might be of interest:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7499

Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:05 am
by alan...
Samma wrote:The Corporate Body of the Buddha Educational Foundation has a copy up. I'm assuming they got permission, but who knows. Well, they are giving it away...
how cool are these guys? at first i thought "CORPORATE?" and saw mostly pure land stuff at a temple i went too, but then i noticed they have basically all the traditions and give away a TON of free books! the temple i used to go to has a section in their library where you can just take books for free and a lot of them are from these guys. :thumbsup:

Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:26 am
by Ben
BlackBird wrote:Hi all

I can't seem to find my copy of Ven. Analayo's Satipatthana book. I can't remember whether I just misplaced it or whether I left it in Wellington or whether I gave it away. I came across a pdf on scribd, and I'm wondering if it's a violation of the 2nd precept for me to download it given that I've purchased multiple copies of it in past?

It would seem to me that it would not violate the spirit of the 2nd precept, but would it violate the letter?

Looking forward to your responses.

metta
Jack
Jack,
My interpretation is that, yes, it is a violation of the second precept.
The second precept is not to take that which is not freely given.
Given that many of the resources on scribd are unauthorised duplications, I would attempt to contact the author and ask for permission to download an electronic copy as you've already purchased several physical copies in the past but mislaid them.
kind regards,

Ben

Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:29 am
by SamKR
Samma wrote:The Corporate Body of the Buddha Educational Foundation has a copy up. I'm assuming they got permission, but who knows. Well, they are giving it away... Be a generous person, don't cause harm, don't sweat this small stuff.
http://www.budaedu.org/ebooks/6-EN.php

Might be of interest:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7499
That's great. I assume this pdf from budaedu.org is legal. After all this organization is renowned for a long time. In the third page of the pdf it says:
This edition has been published for FREE DISTRIBUTION ONLY and NOT FOR SALE.
Buying the book was not a problem, but all I found was paperback version in Amazon and I was looking for a legal electronic version of this book (google books or amazon kindle) so that I can read it in my tablet. Great. Thanks for all of those who are involved in this Dhamma Dana.

Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:10 am
by BlackBird
SamKR wrote:
Samma wrote:The Corporate Body of the Buddha Educational Foundation has a copy up. I'm assuming they got permission, but who knows. Well, they are giving it away... Be a generous person, don't cause harm, don't sweat this small stuff.
http://www.budaedu.org/ebooks/6-EN.php

Might be of interest:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7499
That's great. I assume this pdf from budaedu.org is legal. After all this organization is renowned for a long time. In the third page of the pdf it says:
As an act of Dhammadana, Analayo has waived royalty payments from this book.
...
This edition has been published for FREE DISTRIBUTION ONLY and NOT FOR SALE.
Buying the book was not a problem, but all I found was paperback version in Amazon and I was looking for a legal electronic version of this book (google books or amazon kindle) so that I can read it in my tablet. Great. Thanks for all of those who are involved in this Dhamma Dana.

Fantastic, that solves it. I can download it legally without violating the 2nd precept.

Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:33 am
by binocular
Modus.Ponens wrote:Neither the letter nor the spirit. The spirit you said so yourself. The letter, no because you are not taking away an object that belongs to a person to keep it to yourself, depriving that person from the usage and ownership of the object.
That formulation was made before (digital) copying existed. In the meantime, circumstances have changed.

Ben wrote:My interpretation is that, yes, it is a violation of the second precept.
The second precept is not to take that which is not freely given.
Given that many of the resources on scribd are unauthorised duplications, I would attempt to contact the author and ask for permission to download an electronic copy as you've already purchased several physical copies in the past but mislaid them.
Agreed.
One thing is to make a copy of something that one already possesses (and legally so), and to use that copy for personal means. Such as copying the songs from a purchased music CD to use them on a portable audio device.
But it's not the same to get copies freely, when these copies are of something that is under copyright.

ask for permission to download an electronic copy as you've already purchased several physical copies in the past but mislaid them
I think it depends on the reason for asking such.
If one has become deprived of a legally purchased item that is under copyright, by no fault of one's own, then I think it would be appropriate to ask for such permission for a free copy.
But if one has become deprived of said item by an act of one's own or by negligence, then I think one is essentially in the same position as everyone else who wants said item for the first time.

Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:49 pm
by mal4mac
Ben wrote:
BlackBird wrote:Hi all

I can't seem to find my copy of Ven. Analayo's Satipatthana book. I can't remember whether I just misplaced it or whether I left it in Wellington or whether I gave it away. I came across a pdf on scribd, and I'm wondering if it's a violation of the 2nd precept for me to download it given that I've purchased multiple copies of it in past?

It would seem to me that it would not violate the spirit of the 2nd precept, but would it violate the letter?

Looking forward to your responses.

metta
Jack
Jack,
My interpretation is that, yes, it is a violation of the second precept.
The second precept is not to take that which is not freely given.
Given that many of the resources on scribd are unauthorised duplications, I would attempt to contact the author and ask for permission to download an electronic copy as you've already purchased several physical copies in the past but mislaid them.
kind regards,

Ben
Then why, as site admin, do you allow illegal download of copyright works from this site?

Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:52 pm
by daverupa
http://blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistethi ... -buddhism/
Intellectual Property in Early Buddhism: A Legal and Cultural Perspective

Ven. Pandita (Burma)
University of Kelaniya

In this paper, I examine the modern concepts of intellectual property and account for their significance in monastic law and culture of early Buddhism. As a result, I have come to the following conclusions: (1) the infringement of copyrights, patents, and trademarks does not amount to theft as far as Theravādin Vinaya is concerned; (2) because a trademark infringement involves telling a deliberate lie, it entails an offense of expiation (pācittiya), but I cannot find any Vinaya rule which is transgressed by copyright and patent infringements; and (3) although the Buddha recognized the right to intellectual credit, commentarial interpretations have led some traditional circles to maintain that intellectual credit can be transferred to someone else.

Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:19 pm
by appicchato
Buckwheat wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Neither the letter nor the spirit. The spirit you said so yourself. The letter, no because you are not taking away an object that belongs to a person to keep it to yourself, depriving that person from the usage and ownership of the object. You are copying the object, leaving that person with the original object to herself.
Not everybody would agree with that analysis.
Conversely, not everyone would disagree either...

Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:23 pm
by appicchato
Be a generous person, don't cause harm, don't sweat this small stuff.
Pearls...