What do you think?

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What do you think?

Postby thornbush » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Another quote from a 'non rebirth' post found on another Forum:
The Buddha has states why he teaches rebirth post mortem
MN 68
"So, Anuruddha, it is not for the purpose of scheming to deceive people or for the purpose of flattering people or for the purpose of gain, honour, and renown, or with the thought " let people know me to be thus", that when a disciple has died, the Tathagata declares his reappearance thus "so-and-so has reappeared in such-and-such a place" Rather, it is because there are faithful clansmen inspired and gladdened by what is lofty, who when they hear that, direct their minds to such a state, and that leads to their welfare and happiness for a long time"

lofty
Adjective
[loftier, loftiest]
1. of majestic or imposing height
2. morally admirable: lofty ideals
3. unpleasantly superior: a lofty contempt

What do you all think? Rebirth is just a morally admirable or lofty idea?
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Re: What do you think?

Postby Jechbi » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:05 pm

I think some people (me too sometimes) will find any excuse they want to believe anything they want to believe. From this week's study group sutta:
Others will misapprehend according to their individual views, hold on to them tenaciously and not easily discard them; we shall not misapprehend according to individual views nor hold on to them tenaciously, but shall discard them with ease — thus effacement can be done.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: What do you think?

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:21 pm

Jechbi wrote:I think some people (me too sometimes) will find any excuse they want to believe anything they want to believe. From this week's study group sutta:
Others will misapprehend according to their individual views, hold on to them tenaciously and not easily discard them; we shall not misapprehend according to individual views nor hold on to them tenaciously, but shall discard them with ease — thus effacement can be done.



But the text states that it is lofty/moral so how is this adhering to a persons own view?



Metta
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: What do you think?

Postby Jechbi » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:09 pm

clw_uk wrote:But the text states that it is lofty/moral so how is this adhering to a persons own view?
Because the text does not support the individual view that "rebirth is just a morally admirable or lofty idea" and nothing else, as stated in the OP.

I can see how someone might hold the individual view that rebirth is "just" an idea meant to inspire people, and nothing more. That's the type of individual view we probably shouldn't hold onto tenaciously, and which we should discard with ease.

Metta
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: What do you think?

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:18 pm

thornbush wrote:Rebirth is just a morally admirable or lofty idea?

I think rebirth is a morally admirable or lofty idea.
I do not think it is justa morally admirable or lofty idea.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: What do you think?

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:28 pm

That's the type of individual view we probably shouldn't hold onto tenaciously, and which we should discard with ease.



Why not the other way around?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: What do you think?

Postby Jechbi » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:09 pm

clw_uk wrote:Why not the other way around?

No reason why not. The thing is, we're going to have our individual views. So let's recognize them for what they are and not hold tenaciously onto them. I think that's the point. The moment we think we're 100% right is the moment to be careful, because there may be some self-view present.

On the other hand, some individual views obviously are helpful to a particular person at a particular stage. So if one holds the view that rebirth is more than just a lofty idea, I don't see any reason to just dump that view before we fully understand rebirth in all its aspects. The key is right understanding.

So we recognize our individual view for what it is. There are underlying reasons for the individual views we decide to hold. It can be interesting to observe that nature of our individual views. It can be hazardous not to do so.

Just my 2 cents.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: What do you think?

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:26 pm

Jechbi wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Why not the other way around?

No reason why not. The thing is, we're going to have our individual views. So let's recognize them for what they are and not hold tenaciously onto them. I think that's the point. The moment we think we're 100% right is the moment to be careful, because there may be some self-view present.

On the other hand, some individual views obviously are helpful to a particular person at a particular stage. So if one holds the view that rebirth is more than just a lofty idea, I don't see any reason to just dump that view before we fully understand rebirth in all its aspects. The key is right understanding.

So we recognize our individual view for what it is. There are underlying reasons for the individual views we decide to hold. It can be interesting to observe that nature of our individual views. It can be hazardous not to do so.

Just my 2 cents.



:goodpost:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: What do you think?

Postby BlackBird » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:14 pm

The real problem is, that words only go so far. More often than not, words get misinterpreted, note the word 'interpret' here, that's all we do - We don't really hear things. If we really heard the Dhamma we'd be like the 5 ascetics!

When we chant the recollection of the Dhamma we say:

Opanayiko paccattam veditabbo viññūhīti.
Leading to the goal, to be seen by the wise for themselves.

That's the crux of it, no amount of debate or rote-learning can lead one to the goal, it must be realised for ones self.

With love
Jack.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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