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Do you believe in rebirth?

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:04 am
by Lombardi4
OK, I know this is a Buddhist forum, so it is easy to predict the result.

Still, I think it would be interesting to see what percentage of Buddhists don't believe in rebirth.

Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:21 am
by Ceisiwr
I voted not important

Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:35 pm
by kc2dpt
What one believes is not as relevant to the Path as what view one holds.

Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:44 pm
by genkaku
Stefan -- Will you please say a little about what the "rebirth" you are referring to means to you? It might help in answering the question.

Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:52 pm
by Lombardi4
genkaku wrote:Stefan -- Will you please say a little about what the "rebirth" you are referring to means to you? It might help in answering the question.
The beginningless round of rebirths, being born, ageing, dying, being reborn, ageing, dying, being reborn...

Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:53 pm
by genkaku
Stefan wrote:
genkaku wrote:Stefan -- Will you please say a little about what the "rebirth" you are referring to means to you? It might help in answering the question.
The beginningless round of rebirths, being born, ageing, dying, being reborn, ageing, dying, being reborn...
OK ... so I assume this is something you believe in.

Outside the intellectual and emotional evidence you might suggest, is there some reason to credit it -- some proof that brooks no uncertainty? I mean, is it simply a preference or is it a fact?

Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:08 pm
by Jechbi
genkaku wrote:some proof that brooks no uncertainty
I don't know anyone who sets the bar that high for their beliefs.

In my experience, the beliefs we hold can seem to have a life of their own. We just have these beliefs, like we have a nose on our face. They can change over time (and even produce boogers), but at the moment we have them, that's what we happen to believe. One difficulty is that a lot of folks seem to strongly identify with the beliefs they happen to have at any particular moment. Sometimes so much so that they're willing to kill for them (or at least become a martyr).

Belief in rebirth can be like that. Another element of belief in rebirth as Stefan has framed it is that even within that framework there are still lots of possible different aspects to believe or not believe. Like do you believe is a soul (or something like a soul?) Or do you believe rebirth is guided by some universal judging entity of some kind? Or do you believe rebirth can only occur in certain forms or certain places, or within a particular timeframe?

Lots and lots of opportunity for beliefs, even if you don't believe ...

:smile:

Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:34 pm
by Lombardi4
genkaku wrote:
Stefan wrote:
genkaku wrote:Stefan -- Will you please say a little about what the "rebirth" you are referring to means to you? It might help in answering the question.
The beginningless round of rebirths, being born, ageing, dying, being reborn, ageing, dying, being reborn...
OK ... so I assume this is something you believe in.

Outside the intellectual and emotional evidence you might suggest, is there some reason to credit it -- some proof that brooks no uncertainty? I mean, is it simply a preference or is it a fact?
I don't fully understand what you mean. Lord Buddha taught rebirth, and I trust Him on that. So yes, I believe rebirth is a fact.

Have a nice day Genkaku! :smile:

Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:21 pm
by nathan
Jechbi wrote:
genkaku wrote:some proof that brooks no uncertainty
I don't know anyone who sets the bar that high for their beliefs.
I do.

Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:37 pm
by genkaku
nathan wrote:
Jechbi wrote:
genkaku wrote:some proof that brooks no uncertainty
I don't know anyone who sets the bar that high for their beliefs.
I do.
FWIW ... If the bar is not set at the realm of certainty, what becomes of Buddhism except as another realm of uncertainty, however beautifully it may be embellished?

My teacher once said that belief and hope were fine starting points in practice. Nobody would ever begin practice at all without such things, he said. But, he added, "after four or five years (of practice), belief and hope are not so necessary." Why? Because experience trumps belief and hope ... experience is assured and complete, whereas belief and hope by definition are limited; they separate things; and they nourish uncertainty.

Just my two cents.

Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:05 pm
by kc2dpt
I believe we've already got a rebirth debate thread going on. If the choices in the poll aren't enough for you then you are free to simply not vote.
is there some reason to credit it -- some proof that brooks no uncertainty? I mean, is it simply a preference or is it a fact?
If there was no uncertainly then it wouldn't be belief.
If it was fact then it would not be belief.
Pretty simple folks.

Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:07 pm
by cooran
Hello genkaku, all

Most serious buddhists I know, don't operate from either hope or belief. They operate from the point of view of investigation and experiential trust. "This much" they know and have experienced to be true in what the Blessed One taught ~ so, , based on this, as they practice and study, they trust that what they don't currently know and experience of the rest of his teachings to be true, is certainly as he teaches. No projected time limit on arriving at experiential certainty.

metta
Chris

Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:10 pm
by Ceisiwr
My teacher once said that belief and hope were fine starting points in practice. Nobody would ever begin practice at all without such things, he said. But, he added, "after four or five years (of practice), belief and hope are not so necessary." Why? Because experience trumps belief and hope ... experience is assured and complete, whereas belief and hope by definition are limited; they separate things; and they nourish uncertainty.

Thank you for sharing this, to me this is very wise :smile:

Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:55 pm
by nathan
Peter wrote:I believe we've already got a rebirth debate thread going on. If the choices in the poll aren't enough for you then you are free to simply not vote.
is there some reason to credit it -- some proof that brooks no uncertainty? I mean, is it simply a preference or is it a fact?
If there was no uncertainly then it wouldn't be belief.
If it was fact then it would not be belief.
Pretty simple folks.
Oh, well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me!
then change mine to:
No & know.

Re: Do you believe in rebirth?

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:00 pm
by retrofuturist
I too concur with what Chris says above.

Metta,
Retro. :)