Buddhist Violence Doesn't Exist

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: Buddhist Violence Doesn't Exist

Postby Aloka » Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:06 pm

binocular wrote:
Aloka wrote:
binocular wrote: Protecting oneself/one's practice may result in harming others, though.


In the case of the explanation I gave, how can that result in harming others?


Suppose someone would forcefully try to convert you to their religion, to the point of using pyhsical force. Would you not fight back, which can lead to the other person being injured?


And if someone were to attack a Buddhist temple - do you think the monks should just stand there are let it?

I try not to speculate about 'mights' and 'ifs' .


It's about understanding the principles one reasons with, not about "speculating about ifs."

Buddhist temples do get attacked - note the Chinese invasion of Tibet, or the way theTalibans entered the world's political scene, for example.


You are side stepping my question and diverting to something different.

I don't have anything else to add because I'm going out for an evening meal with a friend now, hope you have a lovely day.

Bye :hello:
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Re: Buddhist Violence Doesn't Exist

Postby Vern Stevens » Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:30 pm

binocular wrote:
Lazy_eye wrote:I think your view of self-defense is far too narrow. One ought to see danger in the slightest fault.


One ought to engage in their practice to the best of their own reasoning mind. I think that is why some Buddhist are pacifists and some are not; their reasoning minds lead them to different conclusions. I'm not sure what your position is on karma, but I'm sure some Buddhists might be more concerned with the karmic impact of killing another sentient being than on saving this particular life. What places you in a position to tell them what they ought view?

With kind regards.
“What we think, we become.“ - The Buddha
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Re: Buddhist Violence Doesn't Exist

Postby binocular » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:52 am

"Seeing danger in the slightest fault" is a phrase often found in the suttas.


Vern Stevens wrote:One ought to engage in their practice to the best of their own reasoning mind. I think that is why some Buddhist are pacifists and some are not; their reasoning minds lead them to different conclusions. I'm not sure what your position is on karma, but I'm sure some Buddhists might be more concerned with the karmic impact of killing another sentient being than on saving this particular life. What places you in a position to tell them what they ought view?

What places you in a position to tell them what they ought view?

Note how I have never told anyone what to do.


Aloka wrote:You are side stepping my question and diverting to something different.

I don't think so.


Looks like this topic is too hot for this forum ...
Many posters are outraged with the news about what is going on in Burma, and what the monks there supposedly do, criticizing and berating the Burmese.
I pointed out that 1. we don't know what exactly is going on there, and there is reason to believe that some media reports are false, and 2. I have offered some explanations for why things could be happening in Burma the way they are reported.
True to my screen name, I am trying to be a person with two eyes: to see both - or more - sides of the story. That's all.



"Monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and discipline, I understand this Dhamma and discipline'; 'How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices: I have the right practice'; 'You have said afterwards what you should have said first, and you have said first what you should have said afterwards'; 'What I say is consistent, what you say isn't'; 'What you have thought out for so long is entirely reversed'; 'Your statement is refuted'; 'You are talking rubbish!'; 'You are in the wrong'; 'Get out of that if you can!'

"Why should you not do this? Such talk, monks, is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or to Nibbana. When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss Suffering, the Arising of Suffering, its Cessation, and the Path that leads to its Cessation. Why is that? Because such talk is related to the goal... it conduces to disenchantment... to Nibbana. This is the task you must accomplish."


SN 56.9
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Re: Buddhist Violence Doesn't Exist

Postby Vern Stevens » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:08 pm

binocular wrote:What places you in a position to tell them what they ought view?


If I'm not mistaken, thinking for yourself came up in the suttas as well.
“What we think, we become.“ - The Buddha
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Re: Buddhist Violence Doesn't Exist

Postby binocular » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:08 pm

Vern Stevens wrote:
binocular wrote:What places you in a position to tell them what they ought view?

If I'm not mistaken, thinking for yourself came up in the suttas as well.

Unfortunately, discussions about morality at some point devolve into one party accusing the other of "Who are you to tell people what they should do?!" (even though no such unsolicited advice or judgment was given) which is a sign that the discussion has probably become too heated to still be continued reasonably and amicably.
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Re: Buddhist Violence Doesn't Exist

Postby Vern Stevens » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:20 am

binocular wrote:... "Who are you to tell people what they should do?!" (even though no such unsolicited advice or judgment was given)


binocular wrote:I think your view of self-defense is far too narrow. One ought to see danger in the slightest fault.


I may have misinterpreted your statements above as advice/judgement, as that is what they appear to be. At any rate, I am not 'heated' about this discussion. Cause and effect will have more to say about the monks involved (whatever the facts are) than will any discussion on this forum.
“What we think, we become.“ - The Buddha
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Re: Buddhist Violence Doesn't Exist

Postby binocular » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:41 am

Vern Stevens wrote:
binocular wrote:... "Who are you to tell people what they should do?!" (even though no such unsolicited advice or judgment was given)


binocular wrote:I think your view of self-defense is far too narrow. One ought to see danger in the slightest fault.


I may have misinterpreted your statements above as advice/judgement, as that is what they appear to be.

Like I said, the phrase "seeing danger in the slightest fault" is a phrase commonly found in the suttas, and I mentioned it with reference to that.

Indeed, in form, it looks like uncalled for advice or judgment - but just think what it actually says. It's not like it's advising something controversial.

For example, "Always look after yourself" and "See danger in the slightest fault" are quite different than "Dye your hair blond" or "Immediately give up drinking coffee."
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Re: Buddhist Violence Doesn't Exist

Postby Vern Stevens » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:47 pm

I did think about what that said which is why it looks like the first sentence was unsolicited judgement about a person's view of self-defense and the second was unsolicited advice, even if it came from the sutras.

At any rate, I am moving on.

Kind regards.
“What we think, we become.“ - The Buddha
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Re: Buddhist Violence Doesn't Exist

Postby PadmaPhala » Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:05 am

indeed, ahimsa is not really understood by some.
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