How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:11 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:No :jumping:


I was showing that having no views is the final goal and is part of the path and not "eel wriggling"


as i said i still have some views


metta


Some? About rebirth? Oh, yeah.



Can you read my mind tilt?


Your mind become mainfest by your actions.


To say there is rebirth is a view

To say there isnt is the same

i do neither


He said, having a view.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:15 am

Hey tilt


So by your definition having no view is having a view


wouldnt that mean that this person being described here has a view then

Because entrenchments1 in views
aren't easily overcome
when considering what's grasped
among doctrines,
that's why
a person embraces or rejects a doctrine —
in light of these very
entrenchments.

Now, one who is cleansed2
has no preconceived view
about states of becoming
or not-
anywhere in the world.
Having abandoned conceit3 & illusion,
by what means would he go?4
He isn't involved.

For one who's involved
gets into disputes
over doctrines,
but how — in connection with what — 5
would you argue
with one uninvolved?
He has nothing
embraced or rejected,6
has sloughed off every view
right here — every one.




a person embraces or rejects a doctrine —
in light of these very
entrenchments.


I dont reject or embrace rebirth
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:17 am

clw_uk wrote:Hey tilt


So by your definition having no view is having a view



Can't let it go, can you?

wouldnt that mean that this person being described here has a view then

Because entrenchments1 in views
aren't easily overcome
when considering what's grasped
among doctrines,
that's why
a person embraces or rejects a doctrine —
in light of these very
entrenchments.

Now, one who is cleansed2
has no preconceived view
about states of becoming
or not-
anywhere in the world.
Having abandoned conceit3 & illusion,
by what means would he go?4
He isn't involved.

For one who's involved
gets into disputes
over doctrines,
but how — in connection with what — 5
would you argue
with one uninvolved?
He has nothing
embraced or rejected,6
has sloughed off every view
right here — every one.


That person is ariya. Are you?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:24 am

Hey


Can't let it go, can you?


So i shouldnt respond to a post?


That person is ariya. Are you?


Your missing the point, you said (or implied anyway) that having no view about something means one has a view


The one being discussed in the passage has no view of anything, so by your own definition he/she has a kind of view (and hence still clings)


metta
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:26 am

Unless you meant that i still have a view, not about rebirth, but about self since i posted


I do neither




Did i misunderstand your post?


metta
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:29 am

clw_uk wrote:Hey


Can't let it go, can you?


So i shouldnt respond to a post?


Respond or not respond. Your choice. And what you are showing us here is your hanging onto your view, strongly.


Craig wrote:
That person is ariya. Are you?


Your missing the point, you said (or implied anyway) that having no view about something means one has a view


Unless one is ariya, only then views can be meaningfully said to be let go with increasing insight.[/quote]
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby Individual » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:31 am

The actual appearance of discussion is only illusion. No actual sharing of coherent thoughts is occurring here of any kind and this thread will either soon be locked, gutted, and\or there will be a stern reminder to return to the topic at-hand, whatever it was.

Also from the Brahmajala Sutta:
And then there are [those] who... ...are given to mutually disparaging disputes. And what are they? (They are as follows:) "You do not know this Doctrine and Discipline. I know this Doctrine and Discipline. How can you ever know this Doctrine and Discipline? Your practice is wrong. My practice is right. My speech is coherent and sensible. Your speech is not coherent and sensible. What you should say first, you say last; and what you should say last, you say first. What you have long practised to say has been upset now. I have exposed the faults in your doctrine. You stand rebuked. Try to escape from this censure or explain it if you can," Samana Gotama abstains from such mutually disparaging disputes.


Image

At a certain point, one or both of you should give up and let it go.

:stirthepot:
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:34 am

Hey


Respond or not respond. Your choice. And what you are showing us here is your hanging onto your view, strongly.



This is an interesting tact in debate, if he responds hes clinging, if he doesnt respond then he doesnt seem able to answer the point

Perceptions of actions dont always equate to the intention/motivation behind them


Unless one is ariya, only then views can be meaningfully said to be let go with increasing insight.



indeed


metta
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:34 am

At a certain point, one or both of you should give up and let it go.



Couldnt agree more :)
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:35 am

clw_uk wrote:Hey


Respond or not respond. Your choice. And what you are showing us here is your hanging onto your view, strongly.



This is an interesting tact in debate, if he responds hes clinging, if he doesnt respond then he doesnt seem able to answer the point

Perceptions of actions dont always equate to the intention/motivation behind them


Unless one is ariya, only then views can be meaningfully said to be let go with increasing insight.



indeed


Indeed, indeed. Which is my point about not claiming to have views.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:40 am

I read canning as a typo of "can"


What does Canning mean?


metta
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:46 am

clw_uk wrote:I read canning as a typo of "can"


What does Canning mean?


metta


That is a bit petty, innit? Of course, it is a typo. I'll correct it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby zerotime » Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:13 am

retaking the topic of Buddhadhasa teaching, the "heressy" is not in claiming rebirth in 3-schema but in claiming this rebirth like the dhamma teaching for rebirth instead the true teaching. The true teaching talks of the constant rebirth in each moment. The same logics inside patticasammupada force us to consider the continuity at the moment of birth and death, because no thing can arise from the nothingness.
However, dhamma is a teaching to contemplate the constant arising of the being, moment to moment. It is not that 3s-Rebirth is not true. The matter is cheking how we cannot contemplate the arising of the being in past or future; only we can do it in this very same moment.

Rebirth in a 3 lifes schema is just an extrapolation of the dhamma logics. We find the truth inside the logics not in the experience. To conceive such rebirth we are forced to imagine another person who is not me at this very same moment. Then, it is not that those images of past and future cannot be close to truth. By logics we think that they are, and also reading the Suttas we check how they are. But the matter is those images are only mind-images. They are not here, are not real.

Even imagining we can see our past lifes, we would be in the same position of remembering our life 10 years ago, 1 week ago. Such person is not me Here and now, there is the only existent guy, able to be cheked. To check his arising and his cease. Even if we were able to check our previous lifes we would not have understanding of rebirth and no certainty of who am I.

best
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby pink_trike » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:11 am

They are viewed with positive interest by those who view the Buddha's original comments as worthy of serious consideration.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:16 am

pink_trike wrote:They are viewed with positive interest by those who view the Buddha's original comments as worthy of serious consideration.


That is true, and there are those, in light of the Buddha's original comments, who have given Buddhadasa's ideas serious consideration and found some of them seriously wanting.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby pink_trike » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:22 am

tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:They are viewed with positive interest by those who view the Buddha's original comments as worthy of serious consideration.


That is true, and there are those, in light of the Buddha's original comments, who have given Buddhadasa's ideas serious consideration and found some of them seriously wanting.

"Wanting" is a very interesting mind state.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:34 am

Greetings Pink_trike,

I think you know full well that's not what Tilt was talking about...

Perhaps you could comment instead of what benefits you have received from your investigation into Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's teachings?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:37 am

tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:They are viewed with positive interest by those who view the Buddha's original comments as worthy of serious consideration.


That is true, and there are those, in light of the Buddha's original comments, who have given Buddhadasa's ideas serious consideration and found some of them seriously wanting.

To revise and clarify in light of over reading into "wanting": "found some of them not worthy of serious consideration."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby pink_trike » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:42 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Pink_trike,

I think you know full well that's not what Tilt was talking about...

Perhaps you could comment instead of what benefits you have received from your investigation into Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's teachings?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Full well? Uh, no...I'm rarely clear what people mean in forum land...are u? I'm responding to Tilt's idea of what is "wanting"...something that I consider to be much more relevant to the the conversation. "Wanting" is rarely separate from "comfort zone".
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:47 am

pink_trike wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Pink_trike,

I think you know full well that's not what Tilt was talking about...

Perhaps you could comment instead of what benefits you have received from your investigation into Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's teachings?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Full well? Uh, no...I'm rarely clear what people mean in forum land...are u? I'm responding to Tilt's idea of what is "wanting"...something that I consider to be much more relevant to the the conversation. "Wanting" is rarely separate from "comfort zone".


And you asked me what that was? I would have said: "not worthy of serious consideration." No need for comfort zone stuff here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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