How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:20 pm

Oh no, are we going to no-view land? Please, no! That's like crazy-pants land! It reminds me of emptiness sickness.
(not intending you any insult, Craig :))

It's a good idea to work on developing Right View for as long as we're ordinary. In my humble and very ordinary opinion.

:anjali:
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:22 pm

Ngawang Drolma wrote:Oh no, are we going to no-view land? Please no! That's like crazy-pants land! It reminds me of emptiness sickness.
(not intending you any insult, Craig :))

It's a good idea to have Right View for as long as we're ordinary. In my humble opinion.

:anjali:




I still have Right View of 4nt's or dependent co-arising

however the Buddhas path is to relinquish, this means views as well


And how is there the yoke of views? There is the case where a certain person does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views. When he does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views, then — with regard to views — he is obsessed with view-passion, view-delight, view-attraction, view-infatuation, view-thirst, view-fever, view-fascination, view-craving. This is the yoke of sensuality, the yoke of becoming, & the yoke of views.

metta
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:39 pm

Dear Craig,

Tricky stuff! :juggling:

I'm not taking a pop at Zen, I'm really not. But have you ever seen a Zen practitioner on a forum who's really into not-this, not-that, but also is-this, is-that, is not either, or neither, therefore there's no need to talk have the conversation? Especially when the not-everything view is being challenged? If that person has gone beyond views of this or that, and there's nothing to defend, then how can you engage him/her in a concrete or useful discussion?

It's a view. Just a more subtle one ;)

I'm not trying to give you a hard time today. I'm just hinting that it might be problematic to make any claims about going beyond views as long as we're just ordinary. If you think rebirth is nonsense, I'm not going to stop talking to you just because I hold a different view. It's cool, but please don't get emptiness sickness. Views can be really useful and they don't even have to lend to further and undue craving. Imho :)

Best wishes,
Drolma
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:54 pm

Howdy


I'm not taking a pop at Zen, I'm really not. But have you ever seen a Zen practitioner on a forum who's really into not-this, not-that, but also is-this, is-that, is not either, or neither, therefore there's no need to talk have the conversation?Especially when the not-everything view is being challenged? If that person has gone beyond views of this or that, and there's nothing to defend, then how can you engage him/her in a concrete or useful discussion?



I havent actually no :jumping: . It sounds like they have swapped one clinging for another. Not holding Views doesnt mean one cant speak of them, the Buddha was beyond views but he still spoke of them. It means one doesnt cling to and adhere to them, one doesnt "take them up"


I'm not trying to give you a hard time today.


Who is here to have a hard time ;)


I'm just hinting that it might be problematic to make any claims about going beyond views as long as we're just ordinary.


I didnt say that, i still have the Right View of 4nt's and i still have some political ones but as i said the Buddhist practice is one of letting go and non-adherence which is a gradual process


If you think rebirth is nonsense



I dont think that, thats another view and opinion


Views can be really useful and they don't even have to lend to further and undue craving. Imho


Certain views are useful since they lead to wholesome states and help develop the path but as i said the Buddhist way is letting go and non-adherence

If you dont let go of a view then by definition you are still clinging to it

Clinging
Becoming
Birth



Of course this doesnt mean "oh well lets get rid of ....." since that doesnt work, the same way thining "oh lets stop craving" doesnt work. Buddhas path is a gradual one



metta
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:57 pm

not intending you any insult, Craig


If craig felt insulted that is due to ignorace and clinging :)
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:02 pm

Hi Craig,

Okay, the emptiness doctor has checked and you seem alright for now.
Will be watching closely though :geek:

Best,
Laura
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:05 pm

Letting go of rebirth post mortem is, in my opinion, conductive to the path


However the constant "rebirth" (not a fan of this word but used for convenience) used in Dhamma still needs to be kept up until nibbana (the rebirth contained in the 4nt's)


Now we hear talk of rebirth, birth again and again, and of the suffering that inevitably goes with it. Just what is this rebirth? What is it that is reborn? The birth referred to is a mental event, Something taking place in the mind-the non-physical side of our make-up. This is "birth" in Dharma language. "Birth" in everyday language is birth from a mother; "birth" in Dharma language is birth from ignorance, craving, clinging, the arising of the false notion of "I" and "mine". These are the two meanings of the word "birth".


This is an important matter, which simply must be understood. Anyone who fails to grasp this point will never succeed in understanding anything of the Buddha's teaching. So do take a special interest in it. There are these two kinds of language, these two levels of meaning: everyday language, referring to physical things, and Dharma language, referring to mental things, and used by people who know. To clarify this point here are some examples.

Consider the word "path". Usually when we use the word "path" we are referring to a road or way along which vehicles, men, and animals can move. But the word "path" may also refer to the Noble Eightfold Path, the way of practice taught by the Buddha - right understanding, right thoughts, right speech. right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration -which leads to Nirvana. In everyday language "path" refers to a physical road; in Dharma language it refers to the eightfold way of right practice known as the Noble Eightfold Path. These are the two meanings of the word "path".


Similarly with the word "Nirvana" (nibbána). In everyday language this word refers to the cooling of a hot object. For example, when hot coals become cool, they are said (in Pali or Sanskrit) to have "nirvana'd"; when hot food in a pot or on a plate becomes cool it has "nirvana'd". This is everyday language. In Dharma language "Nirvana" refers to the kind of coolness that results from eliminating mental defilements. At any time when there is freedom from mental defilements, at that time there is coolness, momentary Nirvana. So "nirvana" or "coolness" has two meanings, according as the speaker is using everyday language or Dharma language.


Another important word is "emptiness" (sunyata, sunnata). In everyday language, the language of physical things, "emptiness" means total absence of any object: in Dharma language it means absence of the idea "I," "mine". When the mind is not grasping or clinging to anything whatsoever as "I" or '"mine," it is in a state of "emptiness". The word "empty" has these two levels of meaning, one referring to physical things, the other referring to mental things, one in everyday language, the other in Dharma language. Physical emptiness is absence of any object, vacuum. Mental emptiness is the state in which all the objects of the physical world are present as usual, but none of them is being grasped at or clung to as "mine". Such a mind is said to be "empty". When the mind has come to see things as not worth wanting, not worth being, not worth grasping at and clinging to, it is then an empty of wanting, being, grasping, clinging. The mind is then an empty or void mind, but not in the sense of being void of content. All objects are there as usual and the thinking processes are going on as usual, but they are not going the way of grasping and clinging with the idea of "I" and "mine". The mind is devoid of grasping and clinging and so is called an empty or void mind. It is stated in the texts: "A mind is said to be empty when it is empty of desire. aversion, and delusion (raga, dosa, moha)." The world is also described as empty, because it is empty of anything that might be identified as "I" or "mine". It is in this sense that the world is spoken of as empty. "Empty" in Dharma language does not mean physically empty, devoid of content.

You can see the confusion and misunderstanding that can arise if these words are taken in their usual everyday sense. Unless we understand Dharma language, we can never understand Dharma; and the most important piece of Dharma language to understand is the term "birth".

The kind of birth that constitutes a problem for us is 'mental birth', the 'birth' or rather the arising of the false notion of "I". Once the idea "I" has arisen, there inevitably follows the idea "I am Such-and-such". For example, "I am a man," "I am a living creature," "I am a good man," "I am not a good man," or something else of the sort. And once the idea "I am Such-and-such" has arisen, there follows the idea of comparison: "I am better than So-and-so," "I am not as good as So-and-so," "I am equal to So-and-so". All these ideas are of a type; they are all part of the false notion "I am," "I exist". It is to this that the term "birth" refers. So in a single day we may be born many times, many dozens of times. Even in a single hour we may experience many, many births. Whenever there arises the idea "I" and the idea "I am Such-and-such," that is a birth. When no such idea arises, there is no birth, and this freedom from birth is a state of coolness. So this is a principle to be recognized: whenever there arises the idea "I," "mine," at that time the cycle of Samsara has come into existence in the mind, and there is suffering, burning, spinning on; and whenever there is freedom from defects of these kinds, there is Nirvana, Nirvana of the type referred to as tadanga- nibbána or vikkhambhana-nibbana.



the rest is here

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... r_of_I.htm

its a good Dhamma talk i didnt come across it until today

metta
Last edited by clw_uk on Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:05 pm

Ngawang Drolma wrote:Hi Craig,

Okay, the emptiness doctor has checked and you seem alright for now.
Will be watching closely though :geek:

Best,
Laura



lol thanks :D


Can i ask what is "emptiness sickness"?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:17 pm

Hi Craig :)

In Theravada terms, I think it's a lot like what Element referred to as "White Darkness." Have you seen him use the term?

Best,
Laura
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:13 pm

clw_uk wrote:To me however if you hold a view of there being rebirth you believe it at some level.

Then you and I understand the words "view" and "belief" differently. This might explain why you exhibit so much resistance to the Buddha's teachings on Right View.

[The Buddha] taught that the path is progressive, that views need to be left behind sooner or later.

He taught that views get left behind by one who has known and seen, aka one who is sotapanna or higher. Are you claiming to be sotapanna or higher? Tiltbillings made this same point to you and asked you the same thing but you never answered him.

If one has a good understanding of Dhamma then one can let go of a view or belief of rebirth after death...

I have never heard the Buddha teach such a thing. Could you provide a quote for this assertion?

To me, hearing Ven. Buddadasa say "wait and see" does not tell me anything about whether he lives and teaches according to Right View.
Read some of his work and judge for yourself

No thank you. I have access to plenty of more reputable works.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:27 pm

Post deleted, very sorry all! Mods if you could delete this I'd appreciate it.

:namaste:
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:30 pm

clw_uk wrote:Letting go of rebirth post mortem is, in my opinion, conductive to the path


That is an interesting view. I don't think I ever heard you say that before.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:36 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Peter wrote:
clw_uk wrote:But if one takes the view of "wait and see" then one doesnt need to take up a view of rebirth since that person is happy with it being an unknown

Since when did "being happy with it" constitute a valid argument? I am happy eating bacon but that doesn't make it good nor healthy. You are clearly happy with your view; no one here disputes that. The dispute is whether your view is in line with Buddhist teachings or not.





To me one cant say "wait and see" and then say "there is rebirth" since the two sentences contradict each other


Not necessarily.The Buddha taught rebirth. Is that how the world works? I guess I'll have to wait and see.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:40 pm

Individual wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:But if one takes the view of "wait and see" then one doesnt need to take up a view of rebirth since that person is happy with it being an unknown


"Wait and see" is a view. My point is that rebirth is what the Buddha taught,


Sort of like Sarah Palin being all mavericky; it is hard to be consistent.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:46 pm

clw_uk wrote:Howdy


I'm not taking a pop at Zen, I'm really not. But have you ever seen a Zen practitioner on a forum who's really into not-this, not-that, but also is-this, is-that, is not either, or neither, therefore there's no need to talk have the conversation?Especially when the not-everything view is being challenged? If that person has gone beyond views of this or that, and there's nothing to defend, then how can you engage him/her in a concrete or useful discussion?



I havent actually no :jumping: . It sounds like they have swapped one clinging for another.


Sort of like clinging to having a non-view view about rebirth.

Not holding Views doesnt mean one cant speak of them, the Buddha was beyond views but he still spoke of them. It means one doesnt cling to and adhere to them, one doesnt "take them up"


He was the Buddha, you're not.

I didnt say that, i still have the Right View of 4nt's and i still have some political ones but as i said the Buddhist practice is one of letting go and non-adherence which is a gradual process


Pesky views. Good luck with that non-adherence thing.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:48 pm

Ngawang Drolma wrote:Hi Craig :)

In Theravada terms, I think it's a lot like what Element referred to as "White Darkness." Have you seen him use the term?


He's the expert.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:55 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Letting go of rebirth post mortem is, in my opinion, conductive to the path
That is an interesting view. I don't think I ever heard you say that before.

I seem to recall he said it way at the beginning of his time with us, that having a view of rebirth was an obstacle to the Path.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:05 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Ngawang Drolma wrote:Hi Craig :)

In Theravada terms, I think it's a lot like what Element referred to as "White Darkness." Have you seen him use the term?


He's the expert.


Sorry to bring him in to the conversation when he can't speak for himself :anjali:

Kindly,
Laura
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:47 pm

Peter wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Letting go of rebirth post mortem is, in my opinion, conductive to the path
That is an interesting view. I don't think I ever heard you say that before.

I seem to recall he said it way at the beginning of his time with us, that having a view of rebirth was an obstacle to the Path.

Once, maybe twice, months ago now that I think about it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:12 pm

if there's one thing i'm am certain of though is that lp buddhadasa probably wouldnt dig all this fighting over him... and would probably say those who claim to understand him best are misrepresenting him most by doing so.
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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