Anatta takes out metta

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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby barcsimalsi » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:57 am

pegembara wrote:
"every beings is made up of 5 aggregates and they are all not-self so why must i waste my time cultivating metta towards those impermanent aggregates." is just another view!

This is what should be done
By one who is skilled in goodness
And who knows the path of peace:
Let them be able and upright,
Straightforward and gentle in speech,
Humble and not conceited,
Contented and easily satisfied,
Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways.
Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful,
Not proud and demanding in nature.
Let them not do the slightest thing
That the wise would later reprove,
Wishing: In gladness and in safety,
May all beings be at ease....


By not holding to fixed vews,
The pure-hearted one, having clarity of vision,
Being freed from all sense-desires,
Is not born again into this world.

Karaniya Metta Sutta

Is it not that view that is helping us to clear our misunderstanding towards the real phenomena?
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby SarathW » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:14 am

All in this world (including news readers) except Arhants will suffer.
Even I suffer, because I am not an Arahant.
I know that you suffer too. (assuming that you are not an Arahant)
With that knowledge I will extend my loving kindness and compassion towards you.
So beings who do not understand Dhamma will always suffer irrespective of Muslim or Buddhist.
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby lyndon taylor » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:18 am

Just as a part of us in not made up of the 5 aggregates, so is a part of everyone else, and every sentient being, not made up of the 5 aggregates, so we should have compassion for all sentient beings, perhaps not so much compassion for non sentient things.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby barcsimalsi » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:39 am

Mental suffering is a conditional feeling aggregate. If one does not regard the feeling aggregate as self, how can one think one suffers?
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby lyndon taylor » Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:02 am

Understanding that your feelings of suffering are not self, does not stop you from feeling suffering. Understanding that your possessions are not self, does not stop you from having possessions, Understanding that your body is not self does not stop you from having a body. Understanding that your thoughts are not self does not stop you from having thoughts, etc etc.

Which is not to say that realizing all these things would not reduce your level of suffering......
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby PadmaPhala » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:19 am

anatman and maitri are not mutually exclusive.
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby barcsimalsi » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:03 pm

One more thing i don't understand about cultivating metta-karuna is when we wish others to be good, isn't that consider an expectation which defeat the main dhamma practice of accepting the way things are?

Surely it feels happy to wish and have everyone in good form but the state of mind that was expecting something positive rather than just let things go and make peace with the present is somehow counterproductive to the practice, at least this is how i see.

Please address any mistake.

Thanks again everyone.
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby Aloka » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:40 pm

barcsimalsi wrote:One more thing i don't understand about cultivating metta-karuna is when we wish others to be good, isn't that consider an expectation which defeat the main dhamma practice of accepting the way things are?

Surely it feels happy to wish and have everyone in good form but the state of mind that was expecting something positive rather than just let things go and make peace with the present is somehow counterproductive to the practice, at least this is how i see.

Please address any mistake.

Thanks again everyone.


I think the cultivation of metta and karuna towards others isn't about wanting anything from them. It helps us to develop a more accepting and peaceful mind ourselves - and this is very beneficial for mental stability and practice in the here and now.

This benevolent attitude in oneself can be summed up in these verses from the Amaravati Chanting Book:

Reflections on Universal Well Being

"May I abide in well-being,
in freedom from affliction,
in freedom from hostility,
in freedom from ill-will,
in freedom from anxiety,
and may I maintain well-being in myself.

May everyone abide in well-being,
in freedom from affliction,
in freedom from hostility,
in freedom from ill-will,
in freedom from anxiety,
and may they maintain well-being in themselves.

May all beings be released from all suffering
and may they not be parted from
the good fortune they have attained.

When they act upon intention
all beings are the owners of their action,
and inherit its results.

Their future is born from such action,
companion to such action,
and its results will be their home.

All actions with intention,
be they skillful or harmful;
of such acts, they will be the heirs."

Additionally, the sections: "Lesson 4 The Giving and Receiving Heart" and "Lesson 5 Wisdom and Compassion" from "Finding the Missing Peace" by Ajahn Amaro might be helpful.

https://www.abhayagiri.org/books/finding-the-missing-peace

.
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby barcsimalsi » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:01 pm

Aloka wrote:I think the cultivation of metta and karuna towards others isn't about wanting anything from them.

That was absolutely right. But my post refers to wanting something for them. Regardless of expecting something for others or oneself, It still looks like a wishful thinking that brings the mind to the future.
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby Aloka » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:26 pm

barcsimalsi wrote: It still looks like a wishful thinking that brings the mind to the future.


That shouldn't be happening because its not about speculating about how well being is going to happen in the future, its about being with the breath and the practice of generating metta in the present. When the practice is ended the mind just relaxes in metta and goodwill beyond concepts.
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby barcsimalsi » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:36 pm

Aloka wrote:
barcsimalsi wrote: It still looks like a wishful thinking that brings the mind to the future.


That shouldn't be happening because its not about speculating about how well being is going to happen in the future, its about being with the breath and the practice of generating metta in the present. When the practice is ended the mind just relaxes in metta and goodwill beyond concepts.

Thanks for explaining. Is it possible to experience metta without chanting any verse?
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby PadmaPhala » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:40 pm

barcsimalsi wrote:Mental suffering is a conditional feeling aggregate. If one does not regard the feeling aggregate as self, how can one think one suffers?


i concur 108%
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby PadmaPhala » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:42 pm

barcsimalsi wrote:One more thing i don't understand about cultivating metta-karuna is when we wish others to be good, isn't that consider an expectation which defeat the main dhamma practice of accepting the way things are?

Surely it feels happy to wish and have everyone in good form but the state of mind that was expecting something positive rather than just let things go and make peace with the present is somehow counterproductive to the practice, at least this is how i see.

Please address any mistake.

Thanks again everyone.


Shakyamuni left because of maitri towards himself [enlightened self-interest].
a MahaBrahma insisted that he better teach than keep it to himself because of karuna and maitri.
Shakyamuni accepted because of Upekkha.
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby Aloka » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:31 pm

barcsimalsi wrote:Thanks for explaining. Is it possible to experience metta without chanting any verse?


Yes, there's a 5 minute Metta instruction from Ajahn Jayasaro here:

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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby manas » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:50 pm

barcsimalsi wrote:"every beings is made up of 5 aggregates and they are all not-self so why must i waste my time cultivating metta towards those impermanent aggregates."


Because dukkha is real, and it is being experienced right now by countless beings, in a range encompassing anything from constant itchiness to unbearable, unending torture. Suffering is happening. And it hurts.

The not-self contemplation is meant for letting go of clinging to what is not self, it's not meant to turn us into nihilists.

:anjali:
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby SDC » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:39 am

Metta - Universal benevolence. Concern for well being. "May I be well, comfortable, peaceful and happy." First and foremost understand that you want for yourself and make sure that you want it. It has to start towards oneself. Do you want to be well, comfortable, peaceful and happy? Most likely, but still take to time to apply it to your situation. Take the time to see how it fits in and take time to develop this wish towards oneself.

Once it is understood and developed somewhat then begin to extend that same level of concern to others. Wish that same wish for them. You are not setting any expectation for what they should do. You are showing concern for their well being. You want them to have that same level of peace that you want. This is NOT about asking anyone to a good person. This is about extending a once personal concern for well being to others.

Over time this benevolent concern will deepen. This depth aspect of metta is called karuna, sometimes defined as compassion. This is fine, but understand that karuna is the depth of the metta. I would even go as far as to say that karuna is a measure of the sincerity of which you are concerned for the well being both of yourself and others. This sincerity, when properly developed, will bring about an equalization effect with which the idea of self begins to weaken and dissolve amongst this broad reaching concern for all beings. How can the self stand out as significant and relevant when a mosquito in Afghanistan is valued just as much? The selfish power diminishes. This equalization brings about a tremendous feeling of joy called mudita.

There may be “no self” but do not disregard that SOMETHING IS HAPPENING. :tongue: There is the experience of a self and the experience of other selves out there and the development of the brahmavihāras helps clarify the US vs THEM situation. It puts this idea of self in perspective. If your "not self" ideas are taking out your concern for the well being of others consider the possibility that you may be asking those people to be something more than well, comfortable, peaceful and happy. And if that is the case it has gone beyond metta.

I hope this helps.
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby SarathW » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:56 am

Anatta should be contemplated with Anicca and Dukkha as well. (three characteristics of existence)
Once you realise these three you will naturally inclined to practice Brahmaviharas.
When I sit on a chair I will make sure, it got at least three legs. :)
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby barcsimalsi » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:52 am

Thanks to everyone.

SDC wrote:Metta - Universal benevolence. Concern for well being. "May I be well, comfortable, peaceful and happy." First and foremost understand that you want for yourself and make sure that you want it. It has to start towards oneself. Do you want to be well, comfortable, peaceful and happy? Most likely, but still take to time to apply it to your situation. Take the time to see how it fits in and take time to develop this wish towards oneself.

Once it is understood and developed somewhat then begin to extend that same level of concern to others. Wish that same wish for them. You are not setting any expectation for what they should do. You are showing concern for their well being. You want them to have that same level of peace that you want. This is NOT about asking anyone to a good person. This is about extending a once personal concern for well being to others.

Over time this benevolent concern will deepen. This depth aspect of metta is called karuna, sometimes defined as compassion. This is fine, but understand that karuna is the depth of the metta. I would even go as far as to say that karuna is a measure of the sincerity of which you are concerned for the well being both of yourself and others. This sincerity, when properly developed, will bring about an equalization effect with which the idea of self begins to weaken and dissolve amongst this broad reaching concern for all beings. How can the self stand out as significant and relevant when a mosquito in Afghanistan is valued just as much? The selfish power diminishes. This equalization brings about a tremendous feeling of joy called mudita.

There may be “no self” but do not disregard that SOMETHING IS HAPPENING. :tongue: There is the experience of a self and the experience of other selves out there and the development of the brahmavihāras helps clarify the US vs THEM situation. It puts this idea of self in perspective. If your "not self" ideas are taking out your concern for the well being of others consider the possibility that you may be asking those people to be something more than well, comfortable, peaceful and happy. And if that is the case it has gone beyond metta.

I hope this helps.

Thanks SDC for bringing this up. I just notice for the whole time that my thought seemed to link the word "concern" with disturbance. Maybe this is why i was being so reluctant to cultivate metta-karuna, it is also been my habitual response to deprive any concerns with anatta, annica and dukkha.

I'm still confuse where to start as my practice of anapanasati and satipatthana is heavily related to the contemplation towards the aggregates with anatta-annica-dukkha.

SarathW wrote:Anatta should be contemplated with Anicca and Dukkha as well. (three characteristics of existence)
Once you realise these three you will naturally inclined to practice Brahmaviharas.
When I sit on a chair I will make sure, it got at least three legs. :)

Does it mean i had to be close in culminating the satipatthana practice before starting brahmaviharas?
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby SDC » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:05 pm

barcsimalsi wrote:Thanks SDC for bringing this up. I just notice for the whole time that my thought seemed to link the word "concern" with disturbance. Maybe this is why i was being so reluctant to cultivate metta-karuna, it is also been my habitual response to deprive any concerns with anatta, annica and dukkha.


This is just a thought and I may be wrong. So please take this with a grain of salt.

Be careful of how often, and for what reason, you drawn upon these concepts because they have a tendency to neutralize the thinking process. While you may be immediately eliminating a concern or some other problem, you may also find that you are eliminating an opportunity to acquire knowledge about your experience.
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Re: Anatta takes out metta

Postby Aloka » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:49 pm

I think the purpose of practice, isn't to block out thoughts, but to understand them and gently let them go again if they're negative - and to maintain awareness, clarity and a relaxed and peaceful mind. Some additional metta practice can help with the development of this relaxation and tranquilty.

We still need some kind of thinking process to accomplish everyday tasks however, and to be kind and considerate towards other sentient beings with whom we share our planet. A more peaceful mind helps one to be more successful in dealing with situations in general, as they arise.
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