Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

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Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Kusala » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:24 am

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Homage to the Buddha
Thus indeed, is that Blessed One: He is the Holy One, fully enlightened, endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct, sublime, the Knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.

Homage to the Teachings
The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and now; not delayed in
time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby nyanasuci » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:48 am

no no.

but read that.... In religious violence, hate is the true enemy: http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opin ... true-enemy
Bhikkhu Hiriko - Ñāṇasuci

The experts do not say that one is a sage in this world because of view, or learning, or knowledge, Nanda.
I call them sages who wander without association, without affliction, without desire.

The Buddha, Sn.V.8.2 (1078)


http://pathpress.org | http://nanavira.org | http://ajahnchah.org
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:56 am

Fortunately he does not speak for theravada. I only wish the public knew this.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Dan74 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:55 am

I agree that killing when it is the only means to save more lives, is justified.

The danger is that this is open to abuse, but this is the case in all ethical dilemmas. Either you have absolute prohibitions, "commandments" in Judeo-Christian style or you have shades of grey where the right decision depends on the circumstance and the context and then there will be folk who will use it to justify their wrong action.

I think life is too complex to have absolute moral laws like "do not kill" that is why in Buddhism we undertake the precept to refrain from killing. We develop respect for all life. In fact we kill daily, as we walk, drive and breathe, but hopefully we develop mindfulness of the price of our existence on this planet and gratitude to the ecosystem for supporting us. And bit by bit, we learn to cherish all living creatures.

The sort of killing the Dalai Lama talks about is not something 99.999% of us will ever have to face. But it does allude to what another Tibetan teacher called "idiot compassion." This is compassion that is not driven by wise action and well-being of the person one seeks to benefit, but by perceived Buddhist platitudes. Like speaking in sweet agreeable tones, always doing what the other person wants and expects, etc.

While most of us are not in a position to be always 100% sure what is the right course of action and what isn't, I find it a good rule to be myself, to be genuine, to engage with what is happening, rather than viewing it as an exercise in Buddhist ethics. Of course Dhamma practice has changed the way I see and deal with things just like the sum total of my life experiences has too. But every moment in life is unique and it is not possible to be certain what the right thing to do is in a given situation until one is in it. And even then...

So I find people's certainty here to be quite puzzling.
_/|\_
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby BlackBird » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:00 am

If I could go back in time to before 1923 and murder Hitler I think I probably would. Assuming I was the only one who could do it, otherwise I'd much rather allow someone else the glory ;) I think it's worth breaking that precept for the countless lives it would save.

I'm not sure if the same could be said about Osama. Ideally they probably wanted him alive anyway but in situations where the man has a gun levelled at you and is about to pull the trigger, from the perspective of the Navy SEAL - Who's life is more important?

Sometimes assassination is the best choice among several bad options. Taking life is not always black and white.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:43 am

BlackBird wrote:If I could go back in time to before 1923 and murder Hitler I think I probably would.
Probably better would be to figure out a way to have prevented the WWI Allies from so severely punishing Germany after the war, driving it into the depths of despair, etc.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Martin Po » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:02 am

I dont think that vajrayana and Dalai Lama are buddhism.
Dalai Lama also say that lying is not so bad.

Also i think that Hitler's horros was a good experiance for humanity, and due to this experiance they took some good decisions. All experiance is good when there is wisdom.
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:11 am

Martin Po wrote:I dont think that vajrayana and Dalai Lama are buddhism.
Dalai Lama also say that lying is not so bad.
Nice that we have the true Buddhism here.

Also i think that Hitler's horros was a good experiance for humanity, and due to this experiance they took some good decisions. All experiance is good when there is wisdom.
Yes. God teaches us through the suffering it inflicts.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Kim OHara » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:21 am

Getting back to the OP: Yes, I agree with HHDL (about 98%, anyway). I also agree Stephen Jenkins, the author of the article, though maybe not quite so strongly.
Making it personal, though, could be tough. Would I ever kill a person to stop them killing other people? I really doubt it.

:juggling:
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Martin Po » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:27 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Also i think that Hitler's horros was a good experiance for humanity, and due to this experiance they took some good decisions. All experiance is good when there is wisdom.
Yes. God teaches us through the suffering it inflicts.


God?
If suffering help to understand 2nd Noble Truth and come to 3rd Noble Truth - it's beneficial.
If there is conditions there is phenomenon, so Hitler/Bin Laden is not good and not bad, it's just fruit of conditions.
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby BlackBird » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:39 am

tiltbillings wrote:
BlackBird wrote:If I could go back in time to before 1923 and murder Hitler I think I probably would.
Probably better would be to figure out a way to have prevented the WWI Allies from so severely punishing Germany after the war, driving it into the depths of despair, etc.


Can't really disagree, he certainly wouldn't have had 35% of the population's support in the early 30's if it weren't for the crushing weight of Versailles. The hypothetical was meant to illustrate an ethical point however rather than simply being a 'what would you do if'
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:48 am

BlackBird wrote:
Can't really disagree, he certainly wouldn't have had 35% of the population's support in the early 30's if it weren't for the crushing weight of Versailles. The hypothetical was meant to illustrate an ethical point however rather than simply being a 'what would you do if'
I know. If Hitler had been killed early on, one has to wonder (but will never know) how things would have played out instead.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:50 am

Martin Po wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Also i think that Hitler's horros was a good experiance for humanity, and due to this experiance they took some good decisions. All experiance is good when there is wisdom.
Yes. God teaches us through the suffering it inflicts.


God?
If suffering help to understand 2nd Noble Truth and come to 3rd Noble Truth - it's beneficial.
If there is conditions there is phenomenon, so Hitler/Bin Laden is not good and not bad, it's just fruit of conditions.
A rather horrifying point of view.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Martin Po » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:36 am

tiltbillings wrote: A rather horrifying point of view.


I know, my ancestry lost the most important number of humain lives in this war, 27 million peoples, 13% of population, but, as you said, we can not say what could heppen in other way, may be somethink more violent or ever irreversible, may be less violent but not enough violent to establish peace in Europe/Asia/America... Who knows.
But i'am convinced that all phenomenon is appropriate to situation, all phenomenon is result of conditions, if there is somethink it's because this "somethink" have to be and there is no other way.
There is Anatta and Harmony and Logic.
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:41 am

Martin Po wrote:But i'am convinced that all phenomenon is appropriate to situation, all phenomenon is result of conditions, if there is somethink it's because this "somethink" have to be and there is no other way.
There is Anatta and Harmony.
So, all those Jews and others put to death by the Nazis are simply an example of harmony and anatta as taught by the Buddha.

(Also, "somethink" should be something.)
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Martin Po » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:50 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Martin Po wrote:But i'am convinced that all phenomenon is appropriate to situation, all phenomenon is result of conditions, if there is somethink it's because this "somethink" have to be and there is no other way.
There is Anatta and Harmony.
So, all those Jews and others put to death by the Nazis are simply an example of harmony and anatta as taught by the Buddha.

(Also, "somethink" should be something.)


Yes.
Hitler is humanity fruit. There is conditions and consequences - that all.
This war have good and bad sides.

PS in others topics you speak about anatta, but you not realy accept it. You should. It's good for equanimity, and equanimity is good for wisdom, if humanity want to avoid such Hitler's horrors, humanity have to develop wisdom.
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:57 am

Martin Po wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Martin Po wrote:But i'am convinced that all phenomenon is appropriate to situation, all phenomenon is result of conditions, if there is somethink it's because this "somethink" have to be and there is no other way.
There is Anatta and Harmony.
So, all those Jews and others put to death by the Nazis are simply an example of harmony and anatta as taught by the Buddha.

(Also, "somethink" should be something.)


Yes.
Hitler is humanity fruit. There is conditions and consequences - that all.
This war have good and bad sides.
Killing six million Jews was good?

PS in others topics you speak about anatta, but you not realy accept it.
You are not the arbiter of who does and does not accept anatta.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Martin Po » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:05 am

tiltbillings wrote: Killing six million Jews was good?

And 7 million of germans is good?
Or 24 millions of soviet peoples?
Or 15 millions of chinese peoples?
...

You forgot 57 millions of "others".
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:17 am

Martin Po wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Killing six million Jews was good?

And 7 million of germans is good?
Or 24 millions of soviet peoples?
Or 15 millions of chinese peoples?
...

You forgot 57 millions of "others".
And those people being killed is, to use your words, an "appropriate" "result of conditions" and is an expression, to again use your words, of "anatta and harmony."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Martin Po » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:44 am

There is death when there is no conditions to life, it's all that a want to say.

If you not accept anicca, dukkha, anatta, kamma, compassion, forgiveness, equanimity, wisdom and 4Noble Truth you have to change your belief systhem.
With respect, and metta.

Thanks for dialogue.

MN 13 PTS: M i 83
Maha-dukkhakkhandha Sutta: The Great Mass of Stress


Sensuality

"Now what, monks, is the allure of sensuality? These five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Now whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strands of sensuality, that is the allure of sensuality.

"And what is the drawback of sensuality? There is the case where, on account of the occupation by which a clansman makes a living — whether checking or accounting or calculating or plowing or trading or cattle-tending or archery or as a king's man, or whatever the occupation may be — he faces cold, he faces heat, being harassed by mosquitoes & flies, wind & sun & creeping things, dying from hunger & thirst.

"Now this drawback in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"If the clansman gains no wealth while thus working & striving & making effort, he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught: 'My work is in vain, my efforts are fruitless!' Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"If the clansman gains wealth while thus working & striving & making effort, he experiences pain & distress in protecting it: 'How will neither kings nor thieves make off with my property, nor fire burn it, nor water sweep it away, nor hateful heirs make off with it?' And as he thus guards and watches over his property, kings or thieves make off with it, or fire burns it, or water sweeps it away, or hateful heirs make off with it. And he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught: 'What was mine is no more!' Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source, sensuality for the cause, the reason being simply sensuality, that kings quarrel with kings, nobles with nobles, brahmans with brahmans, householders with householders, mother with child, child with mother, father with child, child with father, brother with brother, sister with sister, brother with sister, sister with brother, friend with friend. And then in their quarrels, brawls, & disputes, they attack one another with fists or with clods or with sticks or with knives, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that (men), taking swords & shields and buckling on bows & quivers, charge into battle massed in double array while arrows & spears are flying and swords are flashing; and there they are wounded by arrows & spears, and their heads are cut off by swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that (men), taking swords & shields and buckling on bows & quivers, charge slippery bastions while arrows & spears are flying and swords are flashing; and there they are splashed with boiling cow dung and crushed under heavy weights, and their heads are cut off by swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that (men) break into windows, seize plunder, commit burglary, ambush highways, commit adultery, and when they are captured, kings have them tortured in many ways. They flog them with whips, beat them with canes, beat them with clubs. They cut off their hands, cut off their feet, cut off their hands & feet. They cut off their ears, cut off their noses, cut off their ears & noses. They subject them to the 'porridge pot,' the 'polished-shell shave,' the 'Rahu's mouth,' the 'flaming garland,' the 'blazing hand,' the 'grass-duty (ascetic),' the 'bark-dress (ascetic),' the 'burning antelope,' the 'meat hooks,' the 'coin-gouging,' the 'lye pickling,' the 'pivot on a stake,' the 'rolled-up bed.' They have them splashed with boiling oil, devoured by dogs, impaled alive on stakes. They have their heads cut off with swords, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, sensuality for the source... that (people) engage in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. Having engaged in bodily, verbal, and mental misconduct, they — on the break-up of the body, after death — re-appear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress in the future life, has sensuality for its reason, sensuality for its source, sensuality for its cause, the reason being simply sensuality.

"And what, monks, is the escape from sensuality? The subduing of desire-passion for sensuality, the abandoning of desire-passion for sensuality: That is the escape from sensuality.
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