Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:50 am

Martin Po wrote:There is death when there is no conditions to life, it's all that a want to say.
What you said is that that death is appropriate and expression of harmony.

If you not accept anicca, dukkha, anatta, kamma, compassion, forgiveness, equanimity, wisdom and 4Noble Truth you have to change your belief systhem.
With respect, and metta.

Thanks for dialogue.
I simply do not accept your particular take on things where you state that all that death is a result of harmony and not bad because it is the appropriate results of conditions.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Raksha » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:02 am

The article is distorted and largely incorrect. It is true that Westerners often have a view of Buddhism coloured by their own requirements (scientific, pacifistic etc.), however Buddhism is beyond question a religion of peace. There are one or two circumstances in which one can kill but they are extremely rare and peculiar circumstances. In 99.9% of situations killing is wrong, and it results in dire consequences. His Holiness is perhaps referring to these unique theoretical circumstances, but in practice it is clear that countless Tibetan monks and nuns have been tortured and murdered by an unspeakable enemy whilst filled with love and forgiveness.
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Kusala » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:29 am

Martin Po wrote:I dont think that vajrayana and Dalai Lama are buddhism.
Dalai Lama also say that lying is not so bad.

Also i think that Hitler's horros was a good experiance for humanity, and due to this experiance they took some good decisions. All experiance is good when there is wisdom.


Let's not turn this into a Theravada vs Mahayana/Vajrayana thread. That being said, how are the 3 poisons: greed, hatred, and delusion good for humanity?
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Mr Man » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:36 am

I think there are a couple of points which are worth reflecting upon: Is "Buddhism" the teaching of the Buddha or is it the institutions we have today? Which is actually representative of what should be called "Buddhism". And do we need a third party to justify or legitimize (or condemn) our actions?
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Mr Man » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:38 am

Kusala wrote: That being said, how are the 3 poisons: greed, hatred, and delusion good for humanity?

I had also wondered about that. Seems like an almost Christian idea.
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Martin Po » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:50 am

Kusala wrote: That being said, how are the 3 poisons: greed, hatred, and delusion good for humanity?


1st Noble Truth.

Have heared the teaching we know:

- birth is dukkha, agging is dukkha, death is dukkha
- sorrow, grief, lamentation, pain, dispair are dukkha
- assositation with disliked is dukkha, separation from liked is dukkha, not getting one's wishes is dukkha
- in brief, 5 focuses of identity is dukkha
- form, feeling, perception, formation, consciousness are dukkha

What is dukkha is permanent ?
What is dukkha is self ?
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Raksha » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:50 pm

Martin Po wrote:I dont think that vajrayana and Dalai Lama are buddhism.

If I wrote that I would be banned, for making a ridiculous and unsubstantiated remark. I might secretly believe that you are a lobster, but I wouldn't post it on the world wide web.
Martin Po wrote:Dalai Lama also say that lying is not so bad.

When?
Martin Po wrote:Also i think that Hitler's horros was a good experiance for humanity

What?
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Martin Po » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:43 pm

Raksha wrote:
Martin Po wrote:I dont think that vajrayana and Dalai Lama are buddhism.

If I wrote that I would be banned, for making a ridiculous and unsubstantiated remark. I might secretly believe that you are a lobster, but I wouldn't post it on the world wide web.

My opinion is based on:
Mahayana say that there is no suffering, no cause, no cessation, and no way - it's a contradition to Buddha's teaching.
Vajrayna have wrong view and wrong motivation, so there is wrong speach, action, livelihood, striving, mindfulness, concentration, fruit and liberation.

Many of maha-vajrayana practitioners don't know what is it 4 Noble Truth, and Noble Eightfold Path.

So, in my humble opinion, it's no a Buddha Dhamma, not a Dhamma Thought by Lord Buddha. I'am not saying that i'am raison, i just expose my arguments, if i'am right - so it is, if i'am wrong - so it is, it will not change my practice, so i will no continue to speak aboit this question.

Raksha wrote:
Martin Po wrote:Dalai Lama also say that lying is not so bad.

When?

I don't know, i heared it from some disciple of HHDL, when we have discourse about Right Speach. I dont know if it's true, if it's not, i'am sorry.

Raksha wrote:
Martin Po wrote:Also i think that Hitler's horros was a good experiance for humanity

What?

Without this horror, there would not be EU, Israel, nuclear disarmement, durable peace between American, Europeen, Asian countries etc.
Doctors make vaccine to generate anti-cores and avoid epidiemics. Vaccine is bad or good experiance?
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Zenainder » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:54 pm

Absolutes are ambigious, as is for this existence. How many countless events in humanities history have the "good" vs "bad" (perspective dependent) and ended in a slaughtering? Hitler was not the first, nor will he be the last. Does it make a difference from an infinite stand point to murder (assuming foresight) a soon to be Hitler? Another timeline will unfold to an eventual manifestation of another Hitler long after you (current relative state), who murdered the previous soon to be Hitler, has passed on.

Hitler did not rise on his own. Did not murder millions firsthand. He had the help and support of 1,000's of others who either blindly followed, refused to question, or was just "following orders" and not to mention if he was truly even the "ring leader" of the whole ordeal.
&
Did killing Osama Bin Laden solve anything? Or did it just make us blind? What of the actions that resulted in condtions and causes for resentment in the middle east? Did the American Govt sow its owe khamma and raise its own devil due to its involvement and intervention years ago? :shrug:

It seems pointless to me either way. History repeats itself in the end.
If the words "I", "me", or "you" are used, they are for the use of convenience related purposes. None of these exist, of course. ;)
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:18 pm

Martin Po wrote:Mahayana say that there is no suffering, no cause, no cessation, and no way -
No, it does not.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Martin Po » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:19 pm

As i know Hitler has 32% of voices.

Also, such kind of wars arise because of self-sufficiency of economy, because of refutation of mondialisations and commertial/diplomatic/cultural exchengings with neighbours.
Why?
Because when there is economy which is based upon self-sufficiency/ego/self/division, after some time of such fonctionement, resource-territory-diplomatic-war with neighbours is inevitable and logic.

It's a Dhamma that shows how egoism is dengerous, impermanent, suffering and notself.

Republicain/Extrem-right and other political movements, centred on "self", are dengerous. It's just my opinion.
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Martin Po » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:36 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Martin Po wrote:Mahayana say that there is no suffering, no cause, no cessation, and no way -
No, it does not.


Maybe some zen/chan pracitioners are agree with suffering, cause, cessation and the way, but as i know zen it's non-gradual teaching, so there is no 4-th Noble Truth, there is no Eightfold Noble Path.

As Buddha said : the one who knows and sees the Path sees suffering, cause and cessation. Also he say that stream-enterer is the one who enter in the Eightfold Path. Also, when Buddha was a not yet fully enlightened Bodhisatta, he pratcices jain ascetism, and as we know, attachement to wovs (blind ascetic practices) and to rituals are abandoned by stream-enterer, so bodhisattas are not Aryans, so bodhisatta-doctrine in maha-vjrayana have no sense in term of liberation and Buddha Dhamma. Also Buddha said that the one who is not liberated can not teach others, and those who will follow that person will die in the river stream without crossing it. Etc.

I'am sorry if this analysis hurt some one, it's not my intention.
metta
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:38 pm

Martin Po wrote:.

I'am sorry if this analysis hurt some one, it's not my intention.
metta
Your "analysis" is simply ignorant.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Martin Po » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:39 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Martin Po wrote:.

I'am sorry if this analysis hurt some one, it's not my intention.
metta
Your "analysis" is simply ignorant.

It's true.
In other way i would not speak about it and would be free from Samsara.

But if one of us is ignorant (me), the other (you) is free from ignorance, Samsara, a fully enlightened being, worthy of gift, worthy of offering, worthy of hospitality, worthy of respect, i bow to the Sangha.

Thanks for this dialogue.
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:48 pm

Martin Po wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Martin Po wrote:.

I'am sorry if this analysis hurt some one, it's not my intention.
metta
Your "analysis" is simply ignorant.

It's true.
In other way i would not speak about it and would be free from Samsara.
So, you choose to speak from a place of ignorance, maligning, without justification, the Mahayana. Maybe it would be better to say nothing; maybe it would be better if you took some time to actually learn about what it is you are trying to talk about.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Martin Po » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:54 pm

tiltbillings wrote: So, you choose to speak from a place of ignorance, maligning, without justification, the Mahayana. Maybe it would be better to say nothing; maybe it would be better if you took some time to actually learn about what it is you are trying to talk about.


I make some addition in my last post.
I'am sorry but i have alredy explain my point of view, and i dont want to continue dialogue on this question. As you advice me.
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Raksha » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:12 pm

Martin Po wrote:Mahayana say that there is no suffering, no cause, no cessation, and no way - it's a contradition to Buddha's teaching. Vajrayna have wrong view and wrong motivation, so there is wrong speach, action, livelihood, striving, mindfulness, concentration, fruit and liberation. Many of maha-vajrayana practitioners don't know what is it 4 Noble Truth, and Noble Eightfold Path.

You really need to study a bit more Martin. None of these assertions are correct.
Martin Po wrote:So, in my humble opinion, it's no a Buddha Dhamma, not a Dhamma Thought by Lord Buddha.

Ah, 'that old hat'...'the pure teachings of Lord Buddha himself', unadulterated by 'primitive superstitions'. In fact the Dhamma was written down centuries after Lord Buddha so there is no way to determine his actual words. I suppose that one could choose to believe that only The Four Noble Truths/Eightfold Path are 'true Buddhism', but that would be rather silly. Since Buddha's time there have been numerous arhats and enlightened masters who have realised the truths taught by Lord Buddha, and legitimately added to the canon. As for the 'Hindu' foundations of Buddhism which are present in both the Theravada and Mahayana, they are not 'non-Buddhist' but actually form the substrate of all religions because all the ancestors of humanity believed in spirits. Even today every Theravada country has a vibrant folk religious tradition which cannot be separated from Buddhism. To suggest otherwise is to pretend that the dry scholarship of a few pandits could somehow replace the cherished beliefs of ordinary people, it wasn't possible in Buddha's day and it isn't possible today, nor did Lord Buddha suggest it (as much we can determine from surviving teachings.)
:anjali:
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Martin Po » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:20 pm

Maybe so maybe not, who knows?
; )
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Raksha » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:40 pm

Martin Po wrote:Maybe so maybe not, who knows?

Everyone, apart from a few ill-informed sectarians. All Buddhists are family.
:anjali:
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Re: Do you agree with the Dalai Lama?

Postby Martin Po » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:47 pm

Raksha wrote:
Martin Po wrote:Maybe so maybe not, who knows?

Everyone, apart from a few ill-informed sectarians. Buddha did not teach an inferior vehicle. All Buddhists are family.
:anjali:


It's true, all buddhists are family.

What is Buddhism in brief?
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