Ontology of Nibbana

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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby Dan74 » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:22 pm

If existence never "arose", then it would not have to "cease". If our sense of "existing as entities" is due to a delusion, a faulty perception, then when that ceases is the delusion, never to arise again, rather than some objective "self" that used to be reborn but then ceases.
_/|\_
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby reflection » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:24 pm

convivium wrote:
In my eyes transcendental implies some sort of existence
That's why I called it "effectively transcendental".
The only possible sense in which the world of becoming could stop becoming, as it were, is if somehow consciousness (first person, qualitative, subjective experience) does not arise to experience it.

Then I think we are agreeing. But also there is no impersonal consciousness, as that would also imply an existence of sorts.
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby convivium » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:37 pm

Of course, we couldn't be having this conversation without (impersonal) consciousness.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby Zom » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:46 pm

Subj. Yes, there is an ontоlogical nibbana.

The most clear assertion is in the sutta about ocean that has 3 parallels: in Vinaya, in Udana and in Anguttara (one and the same text).

The passage is:

(5) “Just as, whatever streams in the world flow into the great ocean and however much rain falls into it from the sky, neither a decrease nor a filling up can be seen in the great ocean, so too, even if many bhikkhus attain final nibbāna by way of the nibbāna element without residue remaining, neither a decrease nor a filling up can be seen in the nibbāna element. This is the fifth astounding and amazing quality that the bhikkhus see in this Dhamma and discipline….


http://www.palicanon.org/index.php/sutt ... at-chapter

(Can't say if it is "transendental" or smth, but "there is such a thing" -)
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby convivium » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:56 pm

Could you possibly give, etymologically or otherwise, a breakdown on the word "element" here?
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby Zom » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:00 pm

In Pali this is "dhatu". It has several meanings, but still, that does not matter. The comparison with rain drops and ocean explains well how bhikkhus attain final nibbana, while nibbana itself does not increase because of that.
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby convivium » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:01 pm

Is the nibbana element in any way comparable to other elements (dhatu)?
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby Zom » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:04 pm

Well, maybe only in the sense that nibbana-element is not-self, and all other elements are not-self -)
Also, all other elements are impermanent and suffering, while nibbana is not.
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:27 pm

convivium wrote:Is the nibbana element in any way comparable to other elements (dhatu)?
Dhatu is a very interesting word. To understand what it means requires that we look at how it used. And do we assume that "element" means in the context of usage some separate thing.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:21 pm

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby lyndon taylor » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:35 pm

Describing Nirvana for most of us is like a first year medical student trying to describe the actual experience of performing brain surgery, You can read all about it in books, but till you actually do it, you don't really understand.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:48 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:Describing Nirvana for most of us is like a first year medical student trying to describe the actual experience of performing brain surgery, You can read all about it in books, but till you actually do it, you don't really understand.
But the books do tell us some things.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby lyndon taylor » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:13 pm

Absolutely, but if you're a first year medical student describing brain surgery, it might be a good idea to stick to quoting the books, my point?????
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:06 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
convivium wrote:Is the nibbana element in any way comparable to other elements (dhatu)?
Dhatu is a very interesting word. To understand what it means requires that we look at how it used. And do we assume that "element" means in the context of usage some separate thing.

Indeed. In the context of the four great elements, see, for example:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dh%C4%81tu
Dhātu: 'elements', are the ultimate constituents of a whole.

I The 4 physical elements dhātu or mahā-bhūta popularly called earth, water, fire and wind, are to be understood as the primary qualities of matter. They are named in Pāli: pathavī-dhātu, āpo-dhātu, tejo-dhātu, and vāyo-dhātu In Vis.M XI, 2 the four elements are defined thus:,Whatever is characterized by hardness thaddha-lakkkhana is the earth or solid-element; by cohesion ābandhana or fluidity, the water-element; by heating paripācana the fire or heat-element; by strengthening or supporting vitthambhana the wind or motion-element. All four are present in every material object, though in varying degrees of strength. If, for instance, the earth element predominates, the material object is called 'solid', etc. - For the analysis of the 4 elements, see: dhātu-vavatthāna

The problem with the translation "elements" here is that, as Tilt implies, it can give the idea of a "thingness" that is not necessarily justified.

Note that Thanissaro Bhikku translates dhatu as "properties":
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#dhatu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
This has the advantage of emphasising that they are a method of analysis, not "elements" as in "chemical elements".

:anjali:
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:07 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:Absolutely, but if you're a first year medical student describing brain surgery, it might be a good idea to stick to quoting the books, my point?????
Is any one doing otherwise?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby lyndon taylor » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:24 pm

Over on freesangha, Tilt, they're saying all kinds of things!!! Not so much here!!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:09 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Over on freesangha, Tilt, they're saying all kinds of things!!! Not so much here!!!

You mean the "true self" stuff here?
Consciousness in the context of the 5 skandhas, vinnana - is sense consciousness, i.e., cognitive thoughts. Thoughts arise and cease, but that which is aware of the arising and ceasing does NOT arise nor cease.

Vinnana is NOT the Citta - thoughts are NOT the True Mind. But people confuse this all the time.

Thoughts arise and cease. But the True Mind does not arise nor cease along with those thoughts.

It is extremely important to make this distinction.
http://www.freesangha.com/forums/genera ... /#msg64294

That's certainly a very odd interpretation from a Theravada point of view.

:anjali:
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:54 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Over on freesangha, Tilt, they're saying all kinds of things!!! Not so much here!!!
Not so much here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby SarathW » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:25 am

tiltbillings wrote:http://palicanon.org/index.php/sutta-pitaka/majjhima-nikaya/720-mn115-bahudha-tuka-sutta-the-many-kinds-of-elements


Good link :)
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Re: Ontology of Nibbana

Postby lyndon taylor » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:27 am

Mike, hes a Mahayana buddhist, I believe, freesangha.com is an overly arguementative, non sectarian, for a large part non moderated(people don't get kicked off, posts and threads don't dissappear), with a healthy or in my opinion unhealthy component of people who seem to feel they are enlightened, yet show few of the signs of such!! Its where I started after getting kicked of Newbuddhist,com, a place were any nonsense goes, the administrator tells people to get f'd, and claims he bans 40 people a month, a good friend of mine got banned from newbuddhist in one hour for doing nothing but post a sutra quote on buddha nature that disagreed with the moderators opinion. Oh well I like this place, its much calmer, more intelligent and much more varied content, but freesangha is fun with more traffic than this site, albeit less members, go figure.......
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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