Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by Sylvester »

So, here we now have some narratives that appear to challenge the dogma that all Arahants have destroyed the asavas, including the latent tendency to aversion.

Certainly, the tough love approach is what I call the "stone in the infant's mouth" approach (MN 58) - the Buddha agrees that sometimes drastic action is needed, even if it entails drawing blood. In those situations, my faith is that the Buddha was not driven by any negative roots.

But, when I see the lickspittle insult heaped on Devadatta, I wonder how that fits in with the MN 58 test -
Such speech as the Tathagata knows to be true and correct but unbeneficial, and which is also unwelcome and disagreeable to others: such speech the Tathagata does not utter.
What good would that insult have done Devadatta?
User avatar
Kusala
Posts: 1144
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 am

Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by Kusala »

danieLion wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
danieLion wrote:(2) There are several instances in the suttas and vinaya where the Buddha clearly demonstrated anger towards others.
You have some weird views. The very definition of an Arahant or Buddha is someone who has eradicated all traces of anger. From the sutta quoted above:
How could anger rise in him who's free,
Wrathless, all his passions tamed, at peace,
Freed by highest insight, by himself,
So abiding, perfectly serene?
Hi Pesala,
I agree that some of my views at times are not typical, but how exactly do you think they're "wierd"? Are all of your views non-wierd? I might be wrong, but the "very definition of an Arahant or Buddha" is not that he eradicates all traces of anger but that he roots out hate. Chris didn't answer my question about which Pali word is being translated as "anger." I looked at the Pali and it's not dosa. Perhaps you could tell me what the Pali is here? Maybe I'm wrong, but when the Buddha called Devadatta a lickspiddle, he was showing anger; and he frequently called others foolish/misguided/worthless; and it sure looks to me like he got angry at Ananda frequently. If being honest about the how the suttas portray the Buddha is "wierd" then I guess I'm wierd.
Kindly,
dL
In Praise of Speech

67-8 Well worded and significant, true and sweet,
deep or plain or both together, condensed or copious.
Hearing such words of yours, would not even an opponent
be convinced that you were all-knowing?

69 Generally your speech was wholly sweet
but when necessary it would be otherwise.
But either way, every word was well spoken
because it always achieved its purpose.

70 Soft or hard or possessing both qualities,
all your words when distilled had but one taste.[20]

71 Ah! How pure, perfect and excellent your actions are,
that you employed these jewel-like words in such a way.

72 From your mouth pleasing to the eye, drop words
pleasing to the ear, like nectar from the moon.[21]

73 Your sayings are like a spring shower settling the dust of
passions, like a garuda killing the serpent of hatred.[22]

74 They are like the sun again and again
dispelling the darkness of ignorance,
like Sakra's scepter splitting the mountain of pride.[23]

75 Your speech is excellent in three ways:
based on fact it is truthful,
because its motive is pure it causes no confusion,
and being relevant it is easily understood.

76 When first heard your words excite the mind
but when their meaning is pondered over
they wash away all ignorance and passion.

77 They go to the hearts of all.
While comforting the grieving they alarm the heedless
and rouse those preoccupied with pleasures.

78 Truly your words are for all: they delight the wise,
strengthen those of middling intelligence
and illuminate the minds of the dull.

79 Your sayings coax men from false views
and draw them towards Nirvana.
They remove faults and rain down virtues.

80 Your knowledge embraces all things,
your mindfulness is ever present
and thus what you say will always come to pass.

81 Because you never speak at the wrong time
or in the wrong place or towards the wrong person,
your words, like energy rightly applied, are never wasted.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 0.html#ch7
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by daverupa »

Sylvester wrote:What good would that insult have done Devadatta?
Maybe it would be more productive to ask what this insult and its permutation did for the early community? I had read somewhere that some of the Agamas gave a different quality to his shenanigans, which even if true may not be of any significance. But I wonder whether Devadatta was demonized over time in some recitation lines, complete with rhetorical flourishes.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by Sylvester »

Hee hee. You've verbalised the nasty thought lurking in me.
santa100
Posts: 6799
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by santa100 »

Sylvester wrote:But, when I see the lickspittle insult heaped on Devadatta, I wonder how that fits in with the MN 58 test..
If we go back to the beginning section of MN 58, the same question was posed by Nigantha Nataputta as a "two-horned" question with the purpose of defeating the Buddha in their debate. The Buddha then taught the six ways to determine when to speak in which the third criteria says:
Such speech as the Tathāgata knows to be true, correct, and beneficial, but which is unwelcome and disagreeable to others: the Tathāgata knows the time to use such speech ~~ http://palicanon.org/index.php/sutta-pi ... nce-abhaya ~~
And Ven. Bodhi's note:
The Buddha does not hesitate to rebuke and admonish his disciples when he sees that such speech will promote their welfare.
Not being there at the scene, we could only assume that there must be something the Buddhas forsaw that would benefit either Devadatta or the Sangha when He had to use such strong words..
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by danieLion »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
danieLion wrote:I agree that some of my views at times are not typical, but how exactly do you think they're "wierd"?
Your spelling is weird too ;)

Not all criticism is rooted in anger or aversion. Sometimes, the Buddha spoke words that were true, displeasing to others, but beneficial. Not all speech that is displeasing to others is the unwholesome kamma of harsh speech. If it's true, and aimed at benefit, then it's rooted in compassion.

The Buddha's Perfect Speech

Sometimes, the Buddha spoke words that were displeasing and harmful to some, but beneficial to others, e.g. when offered Māgaṇḍiyā as his bride he said that he would not touch her body, which he said was a bag full of urine and excrement. She hated him, but her parents become Non-returners.

The Buddha and the Arahants are free from all traces of mental defilements. There are various translations used for the various Pāḷi terms used, one would have to look carefully at the context to see which is a more appropriate translation.

Anger = kodha (and dosa)
Ill-will = byāpāda
Aversion = paṭigha
Malice = upanāha
Envy = issā
Meanness = macchariya
Disrespect = thambha
Hatred = dosa
Thanks Pesala,
This looks to be worth some exploration.
Kindly,
dL
PS. I've always misspelled "weird," which is itself weird to me because (1) I used to be a great speller (2) I'm usually a perfectionist about things I write (trying to get over that), and (3) talk about enculturation: I live in a city (Portland, OR) where the bumper sticker, "Keep Portland weird!" abounds (now that beards are in, it's sometimes, "Keep Portland beard! and at times, "Keep Portland Beered!" :hello:
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by danieLion »

Pesala's, Sylvester's, Daverupa's and santa100's posts, are very helpful. Thanks to all of you. I'll dig in some more later, but for now, it seems that (1) there's some redactor "corruption" regarding Devadatta (no big surprise) and (2) the Buddha was skilled at what we moderns might call a distinction between being assertive (speaking disagreeable things when appropriate; the stone in the infants mouth simile, etc...) and that what might appear to us as anger may not necessarily be so. Still, I'm concerned: is the Theravada doctrine that the Buddha (and arahants) are perfect sufficient enough of a reason to believe in the Buddha's perfection? If by perfection we mean omniscience, super-humanism, etc..., I'd say no. But if by perfection we mean the eradication of greed, hate and delusion in all its forms, then I'm certainly open to persuasion. A new question might be, in terms of modern psychological understandings of brains and behavior (but not in terms of scientific and/or promissory materialism, which I--and I think the Buddha would--reject), what would this look like? It would be quite the feat to document a modern individual whose brain and behevior are free of all traces of greed, hate and delusion in all its forms. And to my weird way of thinking, it somewhat discouraging to think of how impossible this likely is (and how does Maha Boowa fit into this, as an alleged arahant but also as someone whose mistakes as a "politician" are well documented?). Shoot for stream entry first?

Now, I've some "homework" from Sylvester to attend to.

Kindly,
dL
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9058
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by SDC »

danieLion wrote:Still, I'm concerned: is the Theravada doctrine that the Buddha (and arahants) are perfect sufficient enough of a reason to believe in the Buddha's perfection? If by perfection we mean omniscience, super-humanism, etc..., I'd say no.
I would say "no" as well. The doctrine by itself is practically useless without the development of saddha. Unfortunately it is the most glossed over aspect of the teaching. Some people think the dhamma is interesting and then they're off and running - concerned about practicing satipatthana and jhana and vipassana when they don't really understand what the practice is ultimately meant to do. Of course they can use all the right words, but they have not taken the time to compare it to their own life and see how it is going to work. Don't get me wrong there can be a good deal appreciation and respect immediately, even if a person only reads some small aspect of the teaching, however if the base level appreciation can be cultivated it becomes something very powerful. But it is a process. Not only are you appreciating what the Buddha accomplished but you are looking for how it does or will fit into your life. You are learning how to relate to the dhamma and only at that point can real appreciation be cultivated. Saddha is extremely vital. It is what supports the whole practice so if it is weak it won't support the ideas and work that follow.

All those superhuman qualities are just a byproduct of the far more significant accomplishment of awakening to the truth. And that awakening should be what is appreciated, the rest is just there as a result and need not be focused on. That is why I questioned your idea of awakening because I was curious if we are understanding it the same way. So if you want to have that discussion I think it would be of some use. I suppose that is what you meant when you said you were open to further discussions about other aspects of perfection.

In regards to our words about culture: Obviously there was a cultural aspect to some of what the Buddha taught, but when it comes to awakening - which I'm not sure if I was clear that that was what I was talking about in the post you quoted - it has nothing to do with culture. Nibbana has nothing to do with existence. You don't seem to focus on this at all.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by danieLion »

PS: I know it's not very Theravadin (whatever that is; that itself is obvioulsy highly contentious) to say the Buddha and arahants aren't perfect, but if being Theravadin means I have to believe every single one of its doctrinal points then I have no interest in Theravada because then it's susceptible to all the dehumanizing dangers of blind-faith, group-think, dogmatism and religiosity.
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by danieLion »

SDC,
You're preaching to the choir on the faith issue (except for the debates regarding it's Buddhist meaning). That's obvious.
Re: "awakening"; ok. Begin the discourse. But as Aloka and equilibrium pointed out, how can you talk about something you haven't experienced (back to faith, no?)? Nibbana, as far as my studies indicate, has a lot to do with the culture the Buddha was born in. His culture, as far as I can tell, is them main thing that tipped him off to the possibility. He wouldn't have even had it on his radar if it wasn't for his culture.
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9058
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by SDC »

Damn, I must've came off like a**hole for you to have responded that way. My bad. It was more of a general sentiment on saddha that was not directed at you. My response won't be as preachy I promise.

Real quick though, no you can't talk about it experientially but it can be discussed intellectually.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
hermitwin
Posts: 231
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:35 pm

Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by hermitwin »

I dont think Buddhism can be improved upon.
Buddha teaches the way to end dukkha for 40 years.
If you wish to widen the appeal of Buddhism, sure there
are many creative ways to do it.
But as a manual for nibbana, it is all there already.

If Buddha was not perfect, then Buddha is a liar.
then he is not really the Buddha.
because Buddha means the perfectly enlightened one.
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by danieLion »

SDC wrote:Damn, I must've came off like a**hole for you to have responded that way. My bad. It was more of a general sentiment on saddha that was not directed at you. My response won't be as preachy I promise.

Real quick though, no you can't talk about it experientially but it can be discussed intellectually.
Shoot, I'm sorry SDC. I did not mean "preachy" in any negative way. I just meant I agree about faith & such.
Kindly,
dL
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by danieLion »

hermitwin wrote:I dont think Buddhism can be improved upon.
Buddha teaches the way to end dukkha for 40 years.
If you wish to widen the appeal of Buddhism, sure there
are many creative ways to do it.
But as a manual for nibbana, it is all there already.

If Buddha was not perfect, then Buddha is a liar.
then he is not really the Buddha.
because Buddha means the perfectly enlightened one.
Buddha means "awake."
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4644
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

"Buddha" means so much more than just “awake.”

The best source on the attributes of a Buddha is the Mahāsihanāda Sutta. On his perfection see especially the Four Kinds of Intrepidity.
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
Post Reply