Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:07 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Does that break Buddhist moral code, or is the Buddhist moral code subjective/relative?
You tell me.


Is then murder justified in Buddhism, if it saves lives?
You tell me.



I was asking you ... :coffee:
So, in other words, you have no idea.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby clw_uk » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:21 am

So, in other words, you have no idea.



Once again, I was asking Your opinion

So it's not a case of if im guessing or not, since I haven't stated my position, not yet anyway, but have asked for yours. It's a case of you actually responding to a post, which once again your failing to do.


I dread to think how you would perform in an actual face to face debate :/
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:29 am

clw_uk wrote:
So, in other words, you have no idea.



Once again, I was asking Your opinion

So it's not a case of if im guessing or not, since I haven't stated my position, not yet anyway, but have asked for yours. It's a case of you actually responding to a post, which once again your failing to do.


I dread to think how you would perform in an actual face to face debate :/
Better than you, no doubt. At this point in the discussion, you need to be stating what you think rather than asking others here to do the heavy lifting.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby clw_uk » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:32 am

Better than you, no doubt. At this point in the discussion, you need to be stating what you think rather than asking others here to do the heavy lifting.



No dear, you need to answer my post first ;)


Better than you, no doubt


I would be careful of inductive reasoning ;)
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:34 am

clw_uk wrote:
I would be careful of inductive reasoning
It is direct observation from the rebirth thread.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby clw_uk » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:39 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I would be careful of inductive reasoning
It is direct observation from the rebirth thread.



As I said, be careful of inductive reasoning dear


Just because the sun arose today, it doesn't mean it will tomorrow (which was the implication of your flimsy post)


:)
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:41 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I would be careful of inductive reasoning
It is direct observation from the rebirth thread.



As I said, be careful of inductive reasoning dear


Just because the sun arose today, it doesn't mean it certainly will tomorrow (which was the implication of your flimsy post)
So, as you have consistently argued poorly in the past, I can safely assume that you are going to continue that trend, though I would have no problem with being shown to be wrong. Good luck with that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby clw_uk » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:46 am

Well if you dont answer me, then how can you see if I fail again or not, in your eyes :)

Yet atm I'm better off getting blood from a stone than getting a meaningful response from you


Though on a side note, your understanding of my recent posts in the rebirth thread has been, shall we say, poor at best. :P
Last edited by clw_uk on Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby clw_uk » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:56 am

I suppose its because he did not try to compose some unifying ethical theory.
There is a section in Peter Harvey's An Introduction to Buddhist ethics p49 on Comparisons with Western ethical systems.


Interesting point

Would you see western ethical theories as a failure as they try to reduce morality to one concept?
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby Samma » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:34 am

I don't know, what constitutes a failure, all the various well known theories tend to address and make good points right?

A key aspect of Western ethical systems is that moral prescriptions
should be universally applicable to all people who can understand them.
Buddhism, though, is generally gradualist in approach, so while it has
ethical norms which all should follow from a sense of sympathy with
fellow beings (such as not killing living beings), others only apply to those
who are ready for them, as their commitment to moral and spiritual
training deepens. (Harvey, p. 51)


Remembering what was said and done long ago :reading: ...chp 16 of idiots guide to ethics makes the points of mixing recipes, "Life is complicated, and no single theory can adequately handle all the myriad life-and-death dilemmas that crop up."
http://www.books.google.com/books?id=IN8LN5ksrscC&dq=The+Complete+Idiot's+Guide+to+Understanding+Ethics
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:27 am

clw_uk wrote:Interestingly I can't seem to define Buddhas ethics, be it deontological, consequentialist, natural ethics, sceptical or subjective etc.


Perhaps all of the above.

Much of the Vinaya --> deontological
Skillful means --> consequentialist
4NT, DO, kamma --> natural ethics
Investigation, energy vicaya, viriya --> skeptical
Vinaya changing over time and circumstances --> subjective

But mostly natural ethics. Living beings are naturally subject to pain and suffering and there is a way to the end of suffering. Kamma and DO are natural events that can be observed and experienced.
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:26 am

:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby danieLion » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:25 am

Hi clw_uk,
clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I would be careful of inductive reasoning
It is direct observation from the rebirth thread.



As I said, be careful of inductive reasoning dear


Just because the sun arose today, it doesn't mean it will tomorrow (which was the implication of your flimsy post)


:)

Inductive reasoning is only a problem when we forget that it is about probability and not about a uniformity principle. In all likelihood, the sun will rise tomorrow. Likewise, Tilt merely proposed you're likely to behave like he's observed you behaving in the past. From what I know of Tilt, he has strong obersvational powers and a fairly accurate track-record. It is in your power and your power only to provide a counterinductive example via your behavior and perform well--by his standards--in debate.
Kindly,
dL
Last edited by danieLion on Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby danieLion » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:39 am

Hi David, clw_uk,
David N. Snyder wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Interestingly I can't seem to define Buddhas ethics, be it deontological, consequentialist, natural ethics, sceptical or subjective etc.


Perhaps all of the above.

Much of the Vinaya --> deontological
Skillful means --> consequentialist
4NT, DO, kamma --> natural ethics
Investigation, energy vicaya, viriya --> skeptical
Vinaya changing over time and circumstances --> subjective

But mostly natural ethics. Living beings are naturally subject to pain and suffering and there is a way to the end of suffering. Kamma and DO are natural events that can be observed and experienced.

Which is another way of saying that the closest thing Buddhist ethics comes to in Western philosophy is humanist and pragmatist ethics.
Kindly,
dL
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby danieLion » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:42 am

Hi clw-uk,
clw_uk wrote:
I suppose its because he did not try to compose some unifying ethical theory.
There is a section in Peter Harvey's An Introduction to Buddhist ethics p49 on Comparisons with Western ethical systems.


Interesting point

Would you see western ethical theories as a failure as they try to reduce morality to one concept?

There are several Western ethical theories that reject such reductionism. Again, humanism and pragmatism come to mind.
Kindly,
dL
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby danieLion » Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:06 am

Hi clw-uk,
clw_uk wrote:
Samma wrote:So the answer to "Is then murder justified in Buddhism, if it saves lives?"

Would be it depends on the circumstance. What kind of murder. How many lives. And so on. Of course this is all in the speculative realm and perhaps best put aside...



Hitler and Stalin ...


Or to put it another way

Would you be violent, and possibly kill, a gang that was gang raping a woman if you had access to a gun. Or would you be mindful and remain in equanimity and let it continue to its conclusion?


I realise these aren't nice things to think about, but they seem to be important


I will be honest, I think I would shoot and possibly kill if faced with such a situation, even if I don't know the woman. Yet is this ethical in Buddhism? Would Buddha approve or disapprove?

It's too speculative to play situational ethics/"What Would the Buddha Do?" to be helpful and I'm struggling to see how it's on topic. Wouldn't it be more helpful to look at what the Buddha actually did in some ethically complex situations? For instance, look at his involvement among the monks of Kosambi and his intervention between Koliyan and Sakyan states. He seems to have been a peacemaker in these instances. On the other hand, his whole former clan (Sakyan) was killed in his presence after his peacemaking interventions failed (he was imperfect, afterall). The Sakyans had given a bride to a neighbouring king they thought was a Saykan noble but was in actuality a mere slave or some other kind of "lowlife." The Buddha refrained from interving twice, but on the third occassion, practiced equanimity, considering the dishonest actions of the Sakyans and the anger of the neighbouring king unstoppable by virtue of the karmic "strength" of both parties. Hence, he stood by and witnessed the total destruction of his former clan.
See for instance: The End of the Shakyans
Also of interest: Getting the Message by Thanissaro
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dL
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby BlackBird » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:23 pm

post removed, please regard the opening of my mouth as a momentary lapse of reason. As for your questions Dan

A) Suttas have been all I've been reading lately and I have always had a habit of copying literary styles from that which I have been reading. Call it archaic if you want, but it's only Venerable Bodhi's choice of words, and I would have pegged you a fan of his work...

B) Nibbling on your bait would not be of benefit to anyone. So I won't, and it bares bringing up that were anyone to ever achieve anything in this, nobody would believe him. In fact such a person would be regarded as a kook - So we reach a delicate catch 22 with regards the effacy of the practice whereupon the community is in dire need of proof, but any such notions would be taken with volumes of criticism disbelief and name calling. It's all very counter productive, but please don't take my words too seriously, I'm just musing :)

We want our ariyans anonymous, but we need to know the path is efficacious as concerns the end goal, and the only proof you're ever going to get is from A) personal experience (which my post advocated) and B) From some kind of declaration or inference from some other member of our community. But your average man hasn't achieved A and won't believe B - In fact he positively counts any such inference as proof that someone's either gone off the deep end or is vastly over estimating themselves and caught up in some form of egoism. A beautiful catch 22 worthy of a page in a Heller book imo.

I am sorry you took my post to be bombastic and arrogant when showing up arrogance was the intended point of it, but you have given me further pause for concern and I think I shall make this departure permanent.

All the best Dan :)
Last edited by BlackBird on Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:09 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby Dan74 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:41 pm

Jack, is there a reason why you use archaic language and this bombastic tone in your posts?
_/|\_
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby equilibrium » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:09 pm

danieLion wrote:Can Buddhism be improved upon? Was the Buddha perfect?

Why would one wish to "improve" Buddhism if one doesn't understand what it is yet?
What exactly is a Buddha anyway?.....if we don't know what it is, then how can we say it is perfect or imperfect?
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Postby Aloka » Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:41 pm

equilibrium wrote:
danieLion wrote:Can Buddhism be improved upon? Was the Buddha perfect?


Why would one wish to "improve" Buddhism if one doesn't understand what it is yet?
What exactly is a Buddha anyway?.....if we don't know what it is, then how can we say it is perfect or imperfect?



Yes, exactly. This is what I was trying to say in my "shallow stab" on page 2....

Aloka wrote:Maybe if we practice more and speculate less, we'll develop the wisdom to be able fully understand the Buddha's teachings first.



:)
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