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Dhamma Wheel • View topic - Interconnected

Interconnected

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: Interconnected

Postby pegembara » Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:41 am

chownah wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
chownah wrote:Anyway, since you seem to be of the view that there is an internality and an externality, how do you see that they are interconnected or are you of the view that they are not interconnected?
chownah


An obvious interconnection is that without visible form there would be no visual consciousness or contact. So what we experience is the interaction of internal and external via the sense-bases.

Great! Now that we are back on topic, how do you see the sixth sense base (mind and mental objects) as being internal and external? For me this in the difficult one.
chownah



Take the zen koan, does the falling tree make a sound if there is no one listening.

Depending on internal base ("ear") and external ("vibrations") arise ear consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. Only then is the sound heard.

In experiencing sound there is really no internal or external. They all have to be there for there to be sound.
The mind can take everything as an object both "external" (via the 5 senses) and "internal" (purely internally generated).
In experiencing mental objects, there is also no internal and external.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Interconnected

Postby chownah » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:29 am

mirco wrote:Dear chownah,
chownah wrote:micro, Your post is taking my question in a new direction. What process are you speaking of?

I am talking of the process of Dependent Origination. Human cognition:

4. ‘The six internal bases should be understood.’ So it was said.
And with reference to what was this said?
There are the eye-base, the ear-base, the nose-base, the tongue-base, the body-base, and the mind-base.
So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The six internal bases should be understood.’
This is the first set of six.

5. ‘The six external bases should be understood.’ So it was said.
And with reference to what was this said?
There are the form-base, the sound-base, the odour-base, the flavour-base, the tangible-base, and the mind-object-base.
So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The six external bases should be understood.’
This is the second set of six.

9. ‘The six classes of craving should be understood.’ So it was said.
And with reference to what was this said?
...
Dependent on mind and mind object, mind-consciousness arises.
The meeting of the three is mind-contact;
with mind-contact as condition there is mind-feeling;
with mind-feeling as condition there is mind-craving.
So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The six classes of craving should be understood.
This is the sixth set of six.

M148



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micro,
I'm not sure if I understand you correctly. Are you referring to DO as the process with respect to which internal/external applies, or is human cognition the process you are referring to?

Also, the current discussion of internal/external has been of their overall use in the Teachings and their occurrence with respect to the six sense media has been one part of the overall discussion........are your comments directed toward the general discussion of internal/external or are you speaking just about their use with respect to the six sense media?

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Re: Interconnected

Postby chownah » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:39 am

pegembara wrote:
chownah wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:An obvious interconnection is that without visible form there would be no visual consciousness or contact. So what we experience is the interaction of internal and external via the sense-bases.

Great! Now that we are back on topic, how do you see the sixth sense base (mind and mental objects) as being internal and external? For me this in the difficult one.
chownah



Take the zen koan, does the falling tree make a sound if there is no one listening.

Depending on internal base ("ear") and external ("vibrations") arise ear consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. Only then is the sound heard.

In experiencing sound there is really no internal or external. They all have to be there for there to be sound.
The mind can take everything as an object both "external" (via the 5 senses) and "internal" (purely internally generated).
In experiencing mental objects, there is also no internal and external.

pegembara,
I think what you are describing is a view that internal/external is just a convention and its appearance in the suttas is use of conventional language to describe an idea in a conventional way and that perhaps their use is somewhat arbitrary, artificial and perhaps based on illusion.. What I am trying to do is to learn about whether there is some more meaningful idea behind the use of internal/external other than just convention.
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Re: Interconnected

Postby cherrytigerbarb » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:19 am

It's very simple. It's our use of concepts which make objects appear separate from each other. When you realise this, you can appreciate that there is no such thing as subject and object. This in turn reveals the the truth of no-self and non-dualism.
"The foolish reject what they see, not what they think. The wise reject what they think, not what they see." - Huang Po.
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Re: Interconnected

Postby mirco » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:16 pm

Dear chownah,
my name is mirco. Not micro.

chownah wrote:I'm not sure if I understand you correctly. Are you referring to DO as the process with respect to which internal/external applies, or is human cognition the process you are referring to?

Human cognition ist part of DO.

chownah wrote:Are your comments directed toward the general discussion of internal/external.
Or are you speaking just about their use with respect to the six sense media?

Internal and external only refers to the six sense media, nothing else.


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Re: Interconnected

Postby Dan74 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:00 pm

Pegembara, sorry to be a pedant, but the 'falling tree' is not a Zen koan but a question by Bishop Berkely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest
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Re: Interconnected

Postby chownah » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:28 pm

mirco wrote:Dear chownah,
my name is mirco. Not micro.

chownah wrote:I'm not sure if I understand you correctly. Are you referring to DO as the process with respect to which internal/external applies, or is human cognition the process you are referring to?

Human cognition ist part of DO.

chownah wrote:Are your comments directed toward the general discussion of internal/external.
Or are you speaking just about their use with respect to the six sense media?

Internal and external only refers to the six sense media, nothing else.


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mirco,
Sorry for getting your name wrong. Are you saying that internal/external as used to describe the six sense media are meant to mean internal and external relative to the process of DO?..........or are you saying that internal and external as used with regard to the six sense media means relative to the process of human cognition? Is the process DO?....or is the process human cognition. I'd like to go read some things and if I find something of interest I will come back and see if you or others want to discuss it......but I want to have clear in my mind just what it is I should be looking for. I think you have posted an interesting idea.
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Re: Interconnected

Postby Sam Vara » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:07 pm

Dan74 wrote:Pegembara, sorry to be a pedant, but the 'falling tree' is not a Zen koan but a question by Bishop Berkely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest


Dan74, sorry to be even more of a pedant, but Berkeley never posed this question, despite a lot of people thinking he did, and despite it being a topic associated with his epistemology of subjective idealism. The link which you provided actually points this out.
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Re: Interconnected

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:42 am

mirco wrote:Internal and external only refers to the six sense media, nothing else.


No, internal / external is applied elsewhere, for example to the elements in some suttas, and to self/other in MN10.
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Re: Interconnected

Postby mirco » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:00 am

Dear chownah,
chownah wrote:Are you saying that internal/external
as used to describe the six sense media
are meant to mean internal and external relative to the process of DO?

Internal/external are used to categorize parts of DO, where it takes place. That is contact.

For contact to take place, three things have to happen:
there has to be an object, there has to be a cognition thingy and there has to be a cognition thingy consciousness. (which's potential is given with nāma-rūpa).

My guess is, that because five of the six external (ajjhattika) sense bases actually are physically outside of the body, He has taken this to easily describe the sixth, because the process happening actually is the same.

chownah wrote:are you saying that internal and external
as used with regard to the six sense media
means relative to the process of human cognition?

Human cognition is (part of) DO. ...->contact->feeling>craving->clinging->habitual tendencies->birth (of an action)->...

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Re: Interconnected

Postby chownah » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:41 am

mirco,
Just to be sure I got this right, you are saying that DO is a process which is partly made up of human cognition and human cognition is partly made up from the six internal and the six external sense bases and the terms internal and external here are meant to mean internal and external to the process of DO. Is that right?

By the way, I think ajjhattika refers to the internal sense media but I'm not sure.

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Re: Interconnected

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:46 am

mirco wrote:Internal/external are used to categorize parts of DO, where it takes place. That is contact.


The obvious application of internal/external in DO is phassa arising in dependence on salayatana. Beyond that I'm not sure I see the relevance.
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Re: Interconnected

Postby mirco » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:25 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:The obvious application of internal/external in DO is phassa arising in dependence on salayatana. Beyond that I'm not sure I see the relevance.

I agree.

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Re: Interconnected

Postby chownah » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:46 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
mirco wrote:Internal/external are used to categorize parts of DO, where it takes place. That is contact.


The obvious application of internal/external in DO is phassa arising in dependence on salayatana. Beyond that I'm not sure I see the relevance.

So, then, are you saying that this application of internal/external in DO (as it relates to salayatana....the six sense media) is to be understood as being internal/external to the process of DO?.....and not internal/external relative to the body? I think this is what mirco is saying.
chownah

mirco,
is this what you are saying?
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Re: Interconnected

Postby mirco » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:39 pm

Dear chownah,

I don't know where your faith goes, but I like the Palicanon and have a great believe in most things said there.
So, everything is Dependend Origination.

chownah wrote:Just to be sure I got this right, you are saying that

a) DO is a process, that is partly made up of human cognition
b) human cognition is partly made up from the six internal and the six external sense bases
c) the terms internal and external here are meant to mean internal and external to the process of DO.

Is that right?

Almost.But "made of" sounds a bit misleading. All are but attempts to use speach to describe something what only is to be fully understood when having a calm and clear mind and watching it live in action.

a) Yes. As I understand, human cognition as understood scientifically, can be described with the links of DO from contact [phassa] to death (of an action) [maraṇa].

As stated above, everything is DO. One can have different views of it. Microscopic view, middle way view and macroscopic view. Microscopic is about extremly tiny movements of the mind, the macroscopic view is a three lifetimes spanning concept and the middle way view is looking at what is going on in daily life. I think, we are in between microscopic view and middle way view.

b) Yes. The in-ex sense bases are part of a process. Dependent on them + consciousness, sensation arises.

c) I would say "the terms internal and external here are meant to mean internal and external within the process of DO".



chownah wrote:By the way, I think ajjhattika refers to the internal sense media but I'm not sure.

Not by itself (dict ajjhattika), but in the context, e.g. M148 421. Cha ajjhattikāni āyatanāni veditabbānīti.


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Re: Interconnected

Postby mirco » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:45 pm


chownah wrote: internal/external in DO (as it relates to salayatana....the six sense media) is to be understood as being internal/external to the process of DO?.....and not internal/external relative to the body? I think this is what mirco is saying.

Not in/ex to DO, but within DO.
See above.

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Re: Interconnected

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:39 pm

And how does all this internal/external stuff have to do with the OP?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Interconnected

Postby mirco » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:08 pm

I already was wondering this conversation not having been interupted by you earlier.

What is OP?
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Re: Interconnected

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:52 pm

mirco wrote:I already was wondering this conversation not having been interupted by you earlier.

What is OP?
I was, actually, trying to keep the conversation on track in terms of internal/external in relation to the satipatthana sutta, but given the present direction this discussion has taken, this discussion has gone wildly astray.
As to "what is OP?" "Opening Post."

I am going to lock this thread and laboriously move this stuff to a new thread where you guys can natter on endlessly.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

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