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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:10 am
by tiltbillings
kirk5a wrote: I think Dhamma-insight is on a primal level.
Which is true enough; however, one should never, ever underestimate the capacity of the self to manufacture a sense of adamantine certainty.

Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:51 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings,
kirk5a wrote:Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but the language you used suggested to me insight as views, ideas, outlooks, conclusions, lines of reasoning, worldviews... and as such, unreliable, and not truly eliminating doubt. I think Dhamma-insight is on a primal level.
I was speaking at this sort of level...
Kalama Sutta wrote:When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness" — then you should enter & remain in them.' Thus was it said.
Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:59 am
by kirk5a
tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote: I think Dhamma-insight is on a primal level.
Which is true enough; however, one should never, ever underestimate the capacity of the self to manufacture a sense of adamantine certainty.
I agree, there are apparently a variety of ways in which one can be deceived about mental and physical phenomena. However, I was simply reflecting on the difference between views, ideas, convictions and the like (conventional "insights") which are rather unreliable (one could change one's mind about such things in the future), and the actuality of one's own basic experience.

Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:17 am
by kirk5a
retrofuturist wrote: I was speaking at this sort of level...
Kalama Sutta wrote:When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness" — then you should enter & remain in them.' Thus was it said.
Sounds good indeed. In line with what I was thinking about, first of all, one knows the above for oneself (not simply "believing" such), and secondly, what one knows are qualities (not beliefs or narratives), which actually do lead to welfare and happiness. So that is going well beyond simply hanging on to some "narrative of liberation"

Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:24 pm
by Viscid
tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote: I think Dhamma-insight is on a primal level.
Which is true enough; however, one should never, ever underestimate the capacity of the self to manufacture a sense of adamantine certainty.
Truth.

Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:34 am
by daverupa
Has anyone else been following the other thread which spawned this one? It's been all over the map, yet gone nearly nowhere...

I had expected at least some Madhyamika stuff, maybe prompting some discussion of how Nagarjuna & various Mahayana groups in Central India in general were reacting to Sarvastivada-Sautrantika bickering over time, while Sri Lanka remained largely aloof from these goings-on until Buddhaghosa brought the Theravada up to speed on continental developments, dovetailing into possible avenues of discussion vis-a-vis prajnaparamita and the various abhidhammas, if nothing else... anyway, no such luck.

I also lament the wild, wild west of Mahayana texts in terms of the discussions about consciousness in that thread.

/ :soap:

Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:41 am
by mikenz66
Hi Dave,

I've been reading some of it (there is too much of it for me to really digest all of it). Particularly your contributions, and replies to your contributions. :smile:

As you say, it's all over the place on all sorts of issues, most of which seem to have little to do with the OP.

:anjali:
Mike

Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:09 am
by tiltbillings
daverupa wrote:Has anyone else been following the other thread which spawned this one? It's been all over the map, yet gone nearly nowhere...

I had expected at least some Madhyamika stuff, maybe prompting some discussion of how Nagarjuna & various Mahayana groups in Central India in general were reacting to Sarvastivada-Sautrantika bickering over time, while Sri Lanka remained largely aloof from these goings-on until Buddhaghosa brought the Theravada up to speed on continental developments, dovetailing into possible avenues of discussion vis-a-vis prajnaparamita and the various abhidhammas, if nothing else... anyway, no such luck.

I also lament the wild, wild west of Mahayana texts in terms of the discussions about consciousness in that thread.

/ :soap:
What thread are you referencing here?

Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:23 pm
by imagemarie
"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.

:popcorn:

:anjali:

Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:05 pm
by tiltbillings
imagemarie wrote:"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.

:popcorn:

:anjali:
Thanks. Obviously, had I looked where I should obviously have looked I would seen the obvious.

Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:08 pm
by mikenz66
imagemarie wrote:"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.
Yes, over on Dharma Wheel:
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=14040
It is now up to 33 pages, though most of that does not directly address the topic. Much of the discussion has been about technicalities of various Mahayana interpretations of not-self and so on...

:anjali:
Mike

Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:20 pm
by daverupa
mikenz66 wrote:Much of the discussion has been about technicalities of various Mahayana interpretations of not-self and so on...
As far as I can tell, the thread is mostly rehashing Madhyamika-Yogacara debates. I'm not sure why self-reflexivity has even come up as a hinge issue there... the early Buddhist texts seem to have been mostly, though perhaps politely, ignored.

Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:08 am
by Kim OHara
tiltbillings wrote:
imagemarie wrote:"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.

:popcorn:

:anjali:
Thanks. Obviously, had I looked where I should obviously have looked I would seen the obvious.
Not necessarily. Many of our politicians don't manage such a feat :toilet:
But probably, since you are who you are. :smile:

:coffee:
Kim

Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:57 am
by chownah
daverupa,
What is self reflexivity?
chownah

Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:45 am
by tiltbillings
daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Much of the discussion has been about technicalities of various Mahayana interpretations of not-self and so on...
As far as I can tell, the thread is mostly rehashing Madhyamika-Yogacara debates.
From Tibetan tenet system perspective, which is hardly an accurate portrayal of Indian Yogachara. It all makes me very glad not to be a Mahayanist.