Faith-based against evidence-based

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Justsit » Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:19 pm

chownah wrote:I don't understand your worries. Are you worried about something? If so then what is it.
Seriously. What is there for you to worry about?
chownah

From OP's first post:
"I am about 40 years old, I live in Japan
For about 20 year of my life I have been a devout Catholic Christian, later on I found out that all the teachings of the bible are essentially faith based
I also found out that one day I will die, and that no teachings alone will be likely to save me."

So it sounds like OP has realized that death is certain, the clock is ticking, and is looking for salvation. :shrug:
Justsit
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:41 pm

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby chownah » Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:41 pm

Justsit,
Thank you for giving why you think he has something to worry about. I'm really more interested in what he thinks he has to worry about.
Matteo 1972,
What have you to worry for?
chownah
chownah
 
Posts: 2849
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Samma » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:52 pm

Canki sutta shows the path as:
conviction -> visits teacher -> grows close - > lends ear ->hears dhamma - > remembers it -> penetrating the meaning of teachings -> agreement -> desire -> willing -> contemplation -> exertion -> realizes the ultimate truth

It seems you are genuine (not trolling), though there was no real engagement with my 2 posts, there is certainly persistence. The issue in this thread is you have no conviction and are stumbling at the very first step. The other major stumbling blocks is of course penetrating meaning. And who knows how you are contemplating. But you have shown willingness to visit teachers and to meditate, so let it be, and maybe it will come. Go read and mediation more, as pondering the situation here is not helping eh? The best we are going to get is "OK. This is more or less the reply I was asking for. Thanks." from a post that was basically we "got no proof and who knows if it will help you." Conviction being the very first step, how much is there to say about it? You either have it or not to a large degree. More or less dust in the eye eh?

What helps conviction?
"Association with good people, listening to the true Dhamma, appropriate attention, and practice in accordance with the Dhamma."
"they both cover all three aspects of conviction: social (whom to trust), intellectual (what to believe), and practical (how to act as a result)."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#part3-a

As this thread may show...
AN 5.38
"For a lay person, there are these five rewards of conviction. Which five?
"When the truly good people in the world show compassion/visit/accept gifts/teach dhamma, they will first [do that] to people of conviction, and not to people without conviction.

Sn 1.10
Conviction is a person's highest wealth. Dhamma, when well-practiced, brings bliss. Truth is the highest of savors. Living with discernment, one's life is called best.

SN 46:55
when one's mind is possessed by doubt, overpowered by doubt, then one cannot properly see the escape from doubt which has arisen; then one does not properly understand one's own welfare, nor that of another
Samma
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:47 pm

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Matteo1972 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:59 pm

kc2dpt wrote:Buddhism is nothing other than practical things such as how do you reach Enlightenment.


I will stop here.
Can I ask you a simple, but straight, question?

How do you know this?
As someone told you so and you believed it?
As from your personal experience?

kc2dpt wrote:You do not want to learn. You only ask "Why should I learn from you?" There is a difference between this and learning.


I am totally open to learn from everybody.
What I do not consider as leaning is reading some long long story that tells you that there are 5 causes that are coming from 4 sub-causes, etc. etc.
This I do not consider learning, this s what I consider reading a story.
Learning means some precise discussion about how to attain enlightenment and some precise evidence on why it has been attained.
If you told me that you (or anyone else) in the world has obtained enlightenment by staying 3 years in a cave and repeating some sutra this would be learning
If you tell me that someone 2000 years ago wrote that anger comes from delusion and that delusion must be stemmed because it leads to blah blah .. this would be just a general story in something not directly related to Enlightenment and would not be what I am interested in hearing about.
Matteo1972
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Matteo1972 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:06 am

Samma wrote:Canki sutta shows the path as:
conviction -> visits teacher -> grows close - > lends ear ->hears dhamma - > remembers it -> penetrating the meaning of teachings -> agreement -> desire -> willing -> contemplation -> exertion -> realizes the ultimate truth


And we must believe what is written in the Canki sutta as.. it is written in the canki sutta I assume

Samma wrote:It seems you are genuine (not trolling), though there was no real engagement with my 2 posts, there is certainly persistence. The issue in this thread is you have no conviction and are stumbling at the very first step. The other major stumbling blocks is of course penetrating meaning. And who knows how you are contemplating. But you have shown willingness to visit teachers and to meditate, so let it be, and maybe it will come. Go read and mediation more, as pondering the situation here is not helping eh? The best we are going to get is "OK. This is more or less the reply I was asking for. Thanks." from a post that was basically we "got no proof and who knows if it will help you." Conviction being the very first step, how much is there to say about it? You either have it or not to a large degree. More or less dust in the eye eh?


OK will do that.

Samma wrote:What helps conviction?
"Association with good people, listening to the true Dhamma, appropriate attention, and practice in accordance with the Dhamma."
"they both cover all three aspects of conviction: social (whom to trust), intellectual (what to believe), and practical (how to act as a result)."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#part3-a


Let alone that you are speaking about "true Dhamma".
Is there any "false Dhamma"?
How am I supposed to distinguish?
"Appropriate attention", as is there an "inappropriate attention"?

Samma wrote:As this thread may show...
AN 5.38
"For a lay person, there are these five rewards of conviction. Which five?
"When the truly good people in the world show compassion/visit/accept gifts/teach dhamma, they will first [do that] to people of conviction, and not to people without conviction.

Sn 1.10
Conviction is a person's highest wealth. Dhamma, when well-practiced, brings bliss. Truth is the highest of savors. Living with discernment, one's life is called best.

SN 46:55
when one's mind is possessed by doubt, overpowered by doubt, then one cannot properly see the escape from doubt which has arisen; then one does not properly understand one's own welfare, nor that of another


May I ask you why you quote some book passages and on which ground you believe that this contents are true?
Matteo1972
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Matteo1972 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:07 am

Justsit wrote:
chownah wrote:I don't understand your worries. Are you worried about something? If so then what is it.
Seriously. What is there for you to worry about?
chownah

From OP's first post:
"I am about 40 years old, I live in Japan
For about 20 year of my life I have been a devout Catholic Christian, later on I found out that all the teachings of the bible are essentially faith based
I also found out that one day I will die, and that no teachings alone will be likely to save me."

So it sounds like OP has realized that death is certain, the clock is ticking, and is looking for salvation. :shrug:


Nailed
Matteo1972
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:12 am

It would seem with your mindset that Buddhism has nothing to offer you, I suggest you look elsewhere until such a time as your mind is open enough to consider what people are saying to you.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
User avatar
lyndon taylor
 
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, Southern California, USA

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby PsychedelicSunSet » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:16 am

Matteo1972 wrote:I am totally open to learn from everybody.
What I do not consider as leaning is reading some long long story that tells you that there are 5 causes that are coming from 4 sub-causes, etc. etc.
This I do not consider learning, this s what I consider reading a story.
Learning means some precise discussion about how to attain enlightenment and some precise evidence on why it has been attained.
If you told me that you (or anyone else) in the world has obtained enlightenment by staying 3 years in a cave and repeating some sutra this would be learning
If you tell me that someone 2000 years ago wrote that anger comes from delusion and that delusion must be stemmed because it leads to blah blah .. this would be just a general story in something not directly related to Enlightenment and would not be what I am interested in hearing about.



By the logic you've been using in this thread, it seems like what you say is learning is also just a story. I feel as though if someone else were to say something along those lines, you would simply ask how you know those particular things lead to his enlightenment, and how you know he's actually enlightened. From what I can gather about how you perceive things to be true and not true, the only way you'll believe something is through direct experience. Which if correct (which I'm assuming you'll say I'm not) leads me to ask, why are you asking us all these questions? If you only believe what you experience, it seems useless to ask about such topics as you won't know for sure if what people say is in fact the truth, and that your time would be better spent doing an internal investigation instead of an external investigation.

I hope you find ease and peace in your journey.

:namaste:
User avatar
PsychedelicSunSet
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:04 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Matteo1972 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:48 am

PsychedelicSunSet wrote:By the logic you've been using in this thread, it seems like what you say is learning is also just a story. I feel as though if someone else were to say something along those lines, you would simply ask how you know those particular things lead to his enlightenment, and how you know he's actually enlightened.


Not to his particular enlightenment, but to the enlightenment.
after all, enlightenment is all what Buddhism is about.
No enlightnenment = no Buddha.
So, at first, we must ascertain taht there is an Enlightenment and that Buddha teachings can bring there.
If this is not the case, all the Tipitaka and all the teachings are not worth anything.
Dont you agree?
Please tell

PsychedelicSunSet wrote:From what I can gather about how you perceive things to be true and not true, the only way you'll believe something is through direct experience. Which if correct (which I'm assuming you'll say I'm not) leads me to ask, why are you asking us all these questions? If you only believe what you experience, it seems useless to ask about such topics as you won't know for sure if what people say is in fact the truth, and that your time would be better spent doing an internal investigation instead of an external investigation.


The reason is quite simple
There are hundreds of religions and thousands of teachers.
In one lifetime you have no time to check them all.
So, at the end, you need to try and check the religions that at least promise to lead you somewhere.
If they do not even promise you to lead you anywhere, I can easily stick to Zen where at least satori is attainable, or so they say.
I have heard quite a lot of people claiming that they have achieved satori.
So I am curious to know if there is the same with Theravada, some evidence that it actually leads to absence of suffering.
So far, I got no positive answer, but still looking for.
I will try to check directly to Thai, but if all the answer I can get is.. sit here for 30 years because some old book written by someone told that you may get a favorable birth, well.. I would then go back to Zen

However, there was someone who said very interesting things:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu7mtlbVBOA

Please hear from minute 3:35

PsychedelicSunSet wrote:I hope you find ease and peace in your journey.

:namaste:


Thanks
Matteo1972
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:55 am

Matteo1972 wrote:
kc2dpt wrote:Buddhism is nothing other than practical things such as how do you reach Enlightenment.

How do you know this?
As someone told you so and you believed it?
As from your personal experience?

This is the strangest question I have heard in a while. This is so upside-down it is baffling to me. My earlier statement about how we are talking past each other, on different frequencies, seems spot on.

In my garage I have a repair manual for my motorcycle. It is filled with nothing other than practical things relating to fixing my motorcycle. How do I know this? Because someone told me and I believed it? No. I know this because I opened it up and read it. I can see with my own eyes and comprehend with my own intellect that the words in that book pertain to practical matters of motorcycle repair. This is not religion, this is not a story. It is instructions pertaining to a topic, words which anyone with a decent command of the language can understand. In the exact same way, Theravada scriptures are practical instructions for realizing the ending of suffering. The Buddha says X is caused by Y, stopping Y also stops X, this is how one stops Y, etc. How do I know this? Because I can read.

Whether the instructions work, that is a different question entirely. But for you to ask me how I know "Buddhism is nothing other than practical things such as how do you reach Enlightenment"? I know because I know how to read.

Really, I am baffled. Are you not paying attention to your own questions? Is English not a language you are comfortable with? This is really getting very odd.

What I do not consider as leaning is reading some long long story that tells you that there are 5 causes that are coming from 4 sub-causes, etc. etc.
This I do not consider learning, this s what I consider reading a story.

Again, this is so upside-down. If I wanted to learn how repair my motorcycle I would need to learn how a combustion engine works, how the fuel and the oil and air and the electricity all work together in proper balance, how frame geometry affects stiffness and handling and safety and comfort. This is learning.

Learning means some precise discussion about how to attain enlightenment and some precise evidence on why it has been attained.

This is not learning. This is hand-holding. This is a parent holding a child's hand as they cross a stream. "Come little one, I will bring you across." This is blind faith and blind following, the furthest thing from learning. If my motorcycle broke down one day and a mechanic told me "unscrew this, file that, replace that fluid, tighten the other thing" I might get running again but I would not have learned anything.

If you told me that you (or anyone else) in the world has obtained enlightenment by staying 3 years in a cave and repeating some sutra this would be learning
If you tell me that someone 2000 years ago wrote that anger comes from delusion and that delusion must be stemmed because it leads to blah blah .. this would be just a general story in something not directly related to Enlightenment and would not be what I am interested in hearing about.

I think it would be impossible for one to say more clearly than you just have that one is not interested in Theravada Buddhism. :lol:

And that's fine. Everybody's into different things. You have a very strange concept of "learning", of "evidence", of "faith". It seems to me very clear what you are looking for is not this. I wish you the best of luck in your search and I hope you find what you are looking for.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
User avatar
kc2dpt
 
Posts: 956
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Justsit » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:00 am

Perhaps it would help if you would clearly elucidate what exactly you are seeking?

What question do you want answered?
Justsit
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:41 pm

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Matteo1972 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:24 am

kc2dpt wrote:This is the strangest question I have heard in a while. This is so upside-down it is baffling to me. My earlier statement about how we are talking past each other, on different frequencies, seems spot on.

In my garage I have a repair manual for my motorcycle. It is filled with nothing other than practical things relating to fixing my motorcycle. How do I know this? Because someone told me and I believed it? No. I know this because I opened it up and read it. I can see with my own eyes and comprehend with my own intellect that the words in that book pertain to practical matters of motorcycle repair. This is not religion, this is not a story. It is instructions pertaining to a topic, words which anyone with a decent command of the language can understand. In the exact same way, Theravada scriptures are practical instructions for realizing the ending of suffering. The Buddha says X is caused by Y, stopping Y also stops X, this is how one stops Y, etc. How do I know this? Because I can read.

Whether the instructions work, that is a different question entirely. But for you to ask me how I know "Buddhism is nothing other than practical things such as how do you reach Enlightenment"? I know because I know how to read.


And then you tried and repaired the motorcycle.
And then, after and only after you have been able to repair your motorcycle you understood that the manual is OK
If instead of having the manual of repairing the motorcycle you had a manual for using your air conditioner you would not be able to repair the motorcycle
The manual would be the wrong one.
Now, can I kindly ask you if using the manual (=i.e. the Tipitaka) you were able to repair your motorcycle (i.e. end your suffering) or at least have been able to see anyone repairing theirs (i.e. other people reaching the end of suffering)?
If not, what would be the manual worth?
I can also write a motorcycle manual.
It would be totally a wrong one, since I do not know how to repair, but I can write it. :)
Matteo1972
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Matteo1972 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:30 am

kc2dpt wrote:Again, this is so upside-down. If I wanted to learn how repair my motorcycle I would need to learn how a combustion engine works, how the fuel and the oil and air and the electricity all work together in proper balance, how frame geometry affects stiffness and handling and safety and comfort. This is learning.


How do you know if you know how the engine works?
If, applying what you have studied, you are able to fix an engine!!
If, after studying for years you are not able to fix an engine, what is what you studied good for?
Even more, how can you even know what you have studied?
Maybe you just studied hot air.
The proof is in the pudding!!
Now, after years of trying, have you been able to fix your engine?
If not, how can you know maybe you are using the wrong manual?
Matteo1972
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Ben » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:40 am

Matteo1972 wrote:The proof is in the pudding!!


Actually, the idiom is: "the proof of the pudding is in its eating".
Which, I believe, is a good lesson for you. You need to apply the Dhamma in your own daily life to see the benefit. And the benefit of Buddhism isn't just in the ultimate end result which is awakening. The application of the Dhamma gives extraordinary benefit "here and now". Even if there is no awakening, the practice of Dhamma is more worthwhile than anything else.
Since you have already linked to a video of Ajahn Chah, and I assume that he resonates with you, then why not get instruction from a teacher who was a student of Ajahn Chah.
All the best,

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16262
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Dan74 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:58 am

I am wondering if the OP is interesting is applying the Dhamma, is interested in liberation.

I can see a great interest in questioning. Almost an obsession. There is a meditative method when you focus all your doubts into one. Question the nature of reality/mind 'what is it?' or a koan like "Mu". Then there is a potential benefit. To question without deep investigation is a waste of energy - spinning the wheels.
_/|\_
User avatar
Dan74
 
Posts: 2677
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby santa100 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:19 am

Matteo1972 wrote:So far, I got no positive answer, but still looking for.
I will try to check directly to Thai, but if all the answer I can get is.. sit here for 30 years because some old book written by someone told that you may get a favorable birth, well.. I would then go back to Zen


A word of advise, show some sincerity and humility when you see a Thai master over there. You'll just waste all your time, money and effort if you refer to the Tipitaka and the Buddha as "some old book written by someone". Remember that wonderful Zen simile, gotta empty your cup first before you can get some good tea. Good luck..
santa100
 
Posts: 1564
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Matteo1972 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:40 am

santa100 wrote:
Matteo1972 wrote:So far, I got no positive answer, but still looking for.
I will try to check directly to Thai, but if all the answer I can get is.. sit here for 30 years because some old book written by someone told that you may get a favorable birth, well.. I would then go back to Zen


A word of advise, show some sincerity and humility when you see a Thai master over there. You'll just waste all your time, money and effort if you refer to the Tipitaka and the Buddha as "some old book written by someone". Remember that wonderful Zen simile, gotta empty your cup first before you can get some good tea. Good luck..


Yes, you are right.
I apologize for lacking of respect, that was not my intention.

What I meant to say is that is that we do not know for sure who wrote each part of the Tipitaka and if the writers were enlightened or not.
Again, my apologizes.
Matteo1972
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby SDC » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:43 am

I think you're satisfied with your life, Matteo. Perhaps even really impressed with what you've accomplished. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm glad for you. But I think it causes you to take the dhamma as criticism instead of advice.
User avatar
SDC
 
Posts: 1040
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm
Location: North Jersey

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Matteo1972 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:45 am

Ben wrote:Actually, the idiom is: "the proof of the pudding is in its eating".
Which, I believe, is a good lesson for you. You need to apply the Dhamma in your own daily life to see the benefit. And the benefit of Buddhism isn't just in the ultimate end result which is awakening. The application of the Dhamma gives extraordinary benefit "here and now". Even if there is no awakening, the practice of Dhamma is more worthwhile than anything else.
Since you have already linked to a video of Ajahn Chah, and I assume that he resonates with you, then why not get instruction from a teacher who was a student of Ajahn Chah.
All the best,

Ben


I was planning to follow this advice.
The reason I am eager to go to Wat Pah Nanachat is exactly as it was established by Ajahn Chah.
I found the words of Ajahn Chah of the most interest as they deal with a very important point: the (non) existence of the I.
actually, it is precisely as I heard such words from my current zen master 10 years ago that I came to Japan.
It looks like Zen and the teachings of Ajahn Chah have something in common
Matteo1972
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby chownah » Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:22 am

Matteo1972 wrote:
Justsit wrote:
chownah wrote:I don't understand your worries. Are you worried about something? If so then what is it.
Seriously. What is there for you to worry about?
chownah

From OP's first post:
"I am about 40 years old, I live in Japan
For about 20 year of my life I have been a devout Catholic Christian, later on I found out that all the teachings of the bible are essentially faith based
I also found out that one day I will die, and that no teachings alone will be likely to save me."

So it sounds like OP has realized that death is certain, the clock is ticking, and is looking for salvation. :shrug:


Nailed

Is there salvation? How do you know that there is salvation?
And very importantly, salvation from what?
Did you read about it in a book? Did someone tell you that Jesus had given them salvation? Do you have faith in salvation?
If you imagine salvation without you, how would it be?

Also, you have still not answered my questions about your meaning for the Lennon and zen quotes.....I'm interested in how you interpret them.
chownah
chownah
 
Posts: 2849
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], KenD and 3 guests