Faith-based against evidence-based

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Matteo1972
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Matteo1972 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:19 am

Doshin wrote:I would claim, that you delude yourself by just looking at the messenger, and forget to look at the message; actually the essence of the message.

John Lennon is who is often credited for that insightful quote, its from one of his songs released in 1980. However the quote can be found in 1957 in Reader’s Digest magazine, in March 1958 the popular syndicated columnist Earl Wilson published a version of the saying in a subsection titled “Earl’s Pearls”. (dates found on quoteinvestigator.com ).

Does that make the insight, in the quote, more or less true ?

What I do, is to take the quote (and just the quote) into my mind, and leave it there to simmer, and wait for insights to arise.

_/\_


chownah wrote:Are you familiar with "ad hominum" argument? It means discounting something because of who said it. It is a mistake to do this. If the devil says words of wisdom then the words are still wisdom. Judge words by what they mean and not by who says them. I am neither promoting nor denigrating the quote above....my comment here is not about the quote, it is about the mistaken sort of logic that you are using to respond to it.
chownah
Edit.......I guess I'm guilty of piling on.....I didn't see the previous post.......oh we'll, it can't hurt to emphasize this point.
chownah


Well..

There are about lots of "wise quotes" you can find in the internet, here you can find 10000+ of them

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/life

Is there any particular reason I should consider that John Lennon quote more important than others?

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Doshin
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Doshin » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:35 am

Matteo1972 wrote:
Doshin wrote:I would claim, that you delude yourself by just looking at the messenger, and forget to look at the message; actually the essence of the message....

chownah wrote:Are you familiar with "ad hominum" argument? It means discounting something because of who said it. It is a mistake to do this. ...

Well..

There are about lots of "wise quotes" you can find in the internet, here you can find 10000+ of them

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/life

Is there any particular reason I should consider that John Lennon quote more important than others?


You should focus on quotes, that give you insight or food for thought; they would be the most important to you.

I chose those two quotes, as I thought the insight one could have with them, was relevant to this thread/topic.

_/\_
Knowing about dhamma, does not imply knowing dhamma

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equilibrium
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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby equilibrium » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:38 am

Matteo1972 wrote:If I met with a person claiming that he is arhant, I would not necessarily think he is delusional or that he needs practices, I would rather listen very carefully to what he says.

But the problem here is you do not "know" if he/she is an arhart, do you?.....so why would you believe in their words? in fact, why would you believe in anyone's words.....even your own words in that extent!

Matteo1972 wrote:After all, the Buddha claimed to be enlightened,...

And you believe in this too?.....do you have prove or any evidence?
If it is based on your believe, then why don't you just follow the teaching?

Matteo1972 wrote:I do not believe in any "truth", being it Buddhist or not.

So why are you here?.....what are you searching for? what is more important is based on your statement, is it a "fact" that there is no truth or is it just another one of your own believe?.....a believe isn't a fact is it?

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Matteo1972 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:31 am

Doshin wrote:
You should focus on quotes, that give you insight or food for thought; they would be the most important to you.

I chose those two quotes, as I thought the insight one could have with them, was relevant to this thread/topic.

_/\_


On a way.. all quotes give you some insightful perspective, none of them would lead to Enlightenment I think

Still, thank you for the help

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Matteo1972 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:38 am

Doshin wrote:
You should focus on quotes, that give you insight or food for thought; they would be the most important to you.

I chose those two quotes, as I thought the insight one could have with them, was relevant to this thread/topic.

_/\_


On a way.. all quotes give you some insightful perspective, none of them would lead to Enlightenment I think

Still, thank you for the help

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Matteo1972 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:03 am

equilibrium wrote:But the problem here is you do not "know" if he/she is an arhart, do you?.....so why would you believe in their words? in fact, why would you believe in anyone's words.....even your own words in that extent!


Why would this person deceive me?
In any case, I would not believe him/her at face value, but still I would have a place to start investigating.
So far, we are all talking among non-Enlightened people, so your and my word has the same weight

equilibrium wrote:And you believe in this too?.....do you have prove or any evidence?
If it is based on your believe, then why don't you just follow the teaching?


No, I do not.
But I would listen very carefully.

equilibrium wrote:So why are you here?.....what are you searching for? what is more important is based on your statement, is it a "fact" that there is no truth or is it just another one of your own believe?.....a believe isn't a fact is it?


I am here to listen what other people have to say.
I am serching for some hint of a teaching that could end the suffering

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby dagon » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:29 am

Matteo1972 wrote:
equilibrium wrote:But the problem here is you do not "know" if he/she is an arhart, do you?.....so why would you believe in their words? in fact, why would you believe in anyone's words.....even your own words in that extent!


Why would this person deceive me?
In any case, I would not believe him/her at face value, but still I would have a place to start investigating.
So far, we are all talking among non-Enlightened people, so your and my word has the same weight

equilibrium wrote:And you believe in this too?.....do you have prove or any evidence?
If it is based on your believe, then why don't you just follow the teaching?


No, I do not.
But I would listen very carefully.

equilibrium wrote:So why are you here?.....what are you searching for? what is more important is based on your statement, is it a "fact" that there is no truth or is it just another one of your own believe?.....a believe isn't a fact is it?


I am here to listen what other people have to say.
I am serching for some hint of a teaching that could end the suffering


That is the problem – you are looking for someone else to end your suffering. Where did the Buddha teach that?
Metta
paul

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Matteo1972 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:30 am

dagon wrote:That is the problem – you are looking for someone else to end your suffering. Where did the Buddha teach that?
Metta
paul


Not exactly.
I would need someone reliable to tell me how I need to do to end my suffering

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby equilibrium » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:54 am

Matteo1972 wrote:Why would this person deceive me?
In any case, I would not believe him/her at face value, but still I would have a place to start investigating.
So far, we are all talking among non-Enlightened people, so your and my word has the same weight

Point is not about deceive, it is about whether one understand or not.
As you have already pointed out, you will not believe at face value, then, why would one wish to seek for one?

So how would you know if there are no enlightened people here in these forums?.....is this another assumption? and is it a fact?.....there is somewhere in the teaching and it noted that we are all located on a mountain range, in that range, we are all positioned in terms of our own delusion. Those at the bottom have the most delusion, middle ones are in-between and those at the higher levels have few. Yet those at the lower levels cannot see those higher, only those at a higher level can see those below. The Buddha is positioned at the very top.....so based on your statement, you must be an enlightened being then?

Matteo1972 wrote:No, I do not.
But I would listen very carefully.

Why listen to anyone else than the teaching itself?.....is it not better to learn from the person who is positioned at the top of a mountain range who sees ALL?

Matteo1972 wrote:I am here to listen what other people have to say.
I am serching for some hint of a teaching that could end the suffering

You must be aware that no matter how many people you hear from, you are not going to get any closer to the truth are you? if you are searching for it, you need to start looking at the right place by "doing" rather than asking for it.....you do "know" the truth cannot be told, it is "realised" in your mind!!??.....IF you are ready for it!

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby dagon » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:07 pm

Matteo1972 wrote:
dagon wrote:That is the problem – you are looking for someone else to end your suffering. Where did the Buddha teach that?
Metta
paul


Not exactly.
I would need someone reliable to tell me how I need to do to end my suffering


You already have that – The Buddha and the Dhamma

As you already know – reflect on the aspects of the 4 noble truths that you can perceive from mundane experience.
Follow the precepts and see if your suffering is reduced as you more fully comply with them. They may be called precepts and training rules, but I have found them to be an excellent set of testing rules. They have reduced my suffering in this life and continue to reduce it further as I develop better moral behaviors and ethic. Thus based on the testing of the teachings I have gained faith (someone else said confidence – I like)

Remember that The Buddha provided us with more tools for our development that just meditation. Development of mindfulness and making it the focus of our lives is where the path should be leading us (in my opinion)
Look at psychology and it adoption of (a form) of what The Buddha taught – look at it adoption in all sorts of places including “Christian" countries.

If you adopt something and can test it with positive results then it is clearly worth the investment of more time and effort.

Metta
paul

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby chownah » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:23 pm

Matteo1972 wrote:
Is there any particular reason I should consider that John Lennon quote more important than others?

I don't know how you should consider the quote......except that your consideration should be based on the quote and not on the author.

So, you tell me; what does the quote mean, "life is what is happening to you, while making plans for the future." I would like you to explain what this means to you.
chownah

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:46 pm

robertk wrote:By the way, according to Theravada no bhikkhu who attained sotapanna as a bhikkhu would go back to the low life of a layman.

I believe you are mistaken on this point. If I recall correctly, it is said an arahant could not live as a layman. I do not recall if an anagami could. A sakadagami or sottapanna definately could. I will try to find a reference later today.
- Peter

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby robertk » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:16 pm

kc2dpt wrote:I believe you are mistaken on this point. If I recall correctly, it is said an arahant could not live as a layman. I do not recall if an anagami could. A sakadagami or sottapanna definately could. I will try to find a reference later today.


Rereading what I wrote I cannot see anywhere where I suggest a sotappana cannot be a laymen> In fact there are million of cases given in the texts of laymen as sotapanna, sakadagami and anagami. So I am not sure your references will be useful.

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Matteo1972 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:15 pm

dagon wrote:You already have that – The Buddha and the Dhamma


Well.. unless you are veeery old, I do not think you met the Buddha personally. :)
Infact, I do not think anybody can claim evidence that he actually lived.

As for the Dhamma, unless it can be assumed that it can actually bring people to Enlightenment, what would be the use?

dagon wrote:As you already know – reflect on the aspects of the 4 noble truths that you can perceive from mundane experience.
Follow the precepts and see if your suffering is reduced as you more fully comply with them. They may be called precepts and training rules, but I have found them to be an excellent set of testing rules. They have reduced my suffering in this life and continue to reduce it further as I develop better moral behaviors and ethic. Thus based on the testing of the teachings I have gained faith (someone else said confidence – I like)


Yes, suffering can be thought to be decreasing if you think it does.
I do not want to make any proselitism here, but Catholic priests claim the same: if you have in God you can bear your burden better.
I think the same would be true for faith in Allah, or any other God probably

dagon wrote:Remember that The Buddha provided us with more tools for our development that just meditation. Development of mindfulness and making it the focus of our lives is where the path should be leading us (in my opinion)
Look at psychology and it adoption of (a form) of what The Buddha taught – look at it adoption in all sorts of places including “Christian" countries.

If you adopt something and can test it with positive results then it is clearly worth the investment of more time and effort.

Metta
paul


I have seen happy Christians
I have seen happy Muslims
I have seen happy atheists.
Of course there are happy Buddhists, but why do you assume their teaching is better?

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Matteo1972 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:17 pm

chownah wrote:
Matteo1972 wrote:
Is there any particular reason I should consider that John Lennon quote more important than others?

I don't know how you should consider the quote......except that your consideration should be based on the quote and not on the author.

So, you tell me; what does the quote mean, "life is what is happening to you, while making plans for the future." I would like you to explain what this means to you.
chownah


Please do.

I fail to see the deep meaning of it.

I have a Zen quote, however.

If you imagine your body moving without "you", how would it behave?

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby Matteo1972 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:24 pm

equilibrium wrote:Point is not about deceive, it is about whether one understand or not.
As you have already pointed out, you will not believe at face value, then, why would one wish to seek for one?


Because not believing at face value does not mean not be willing to listen and learn

equilibrium wrote:So how would you know if there are no enlightened people here in these forums?.....is this another assumption? and is it a fact?.....there is somewhere in the teaching and it noted that we are all located on a mountain range, in that range, we are all positioned in terms of our own delusion. Those at the bottom have the most delusion, middle ones are in-between and those at the higher levels have few. Yet those at the lower levels cannot see those higher, only those at a higher level can see those below. The Buddha is positioned at the very top.....so based on your statement, you must be an enlightened being then?


There are two contradictions in your sentence:
1) if you are not an Enlightened being and you cant look on the top, how can you even assume that the Buddha is the Enlightened? Faith?
2) the sentence itself is a teaching which describes a law of who can see whom
This teaching also is about Enlightenment, how come that you, who are not on top, can appreciate this law?

equilibrium wrote:Why listen to anyone else than the teaching itself?.....is it not better to learn from the person who is positioned at the top of a mountain range who sees ALL?


Where does your faith that a Buddha existed and that he can see all come from?

equilibrium wrote:You must be aware that no matter how many people you hear from, you are not going to get any closer to the truth are you? if you are searching for it, you need to start looking at the right place by "doing" rather than asking for it.....you do "know" the truth cannot be told, it is "realised" in your mind!!??.....IF you are ready for it!


How do you know this?
Have you heard all the teachings?
Also, it is physically impossible to try all the practices s that all masters teach all around the world.
Not even if you live 1000 years.

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby kirk5a » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:45 pm

Did they teach about "mind" in your Zen practice? Clinging-mind and non-clinging mind?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby chownah » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:54 pm

Matteo1972 wrote:
chownah wrote:
Matteo1972 wrote:
Is there any particular reason I should consider that John Lennon quote more important than others?

I don't know how you should consider the quote......except that your consideration should be based on the quote and not on the author.

So, you tell me; what does the quote mean, "life is what is happening to you, while making plans for the future." I would like you to explain what this means to you.
chownah


Please do.

I fail to see the deep meaning of it.

I have a Zen quote, however.

If you imagine your body moving without "you", how would it behave?

Please do what?

Do you see any meaning in it?

What does your zen quote mean to you?

chownah

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:04 pm

Matteo1972 wrote:Yes, you can get some peace, yes, you can get same good feelings, but you can get peace also by stopping to drink and you can get good feelings by making a family.
What about Enlightenment and what is it about?


Matteo1972 wrote:Also, I dont believe happiness can be measured.


Matteo1972 wrote:It looks that it is not even claimed to be any realistically possible.
So what is the point of even trying?


Matteo1972 wrote:I have faith, but faith in whom since 100 people say 100 different things
Why not faith in Prof. Williams?


Matteo1972 wrote:My point is that I do not believe the Tipitaka more than I believe the bible or the Koran.


Matteo1972 wrote:As from my point of view, Ven. Pesala words and Prof. Williams teachings have the same weight.


Matteo1972 wrote:If Buddhism cant provide a clear way for this, with people actually having reached this goal and this goal being realistically attainable, then the whole point of Buddhism is null, in my opinion.


Matteo1972 wrote:It looks to me that Theravada Buddhism requires the same amount of blind faith that Catholicism requires


Matteo1972 wrote:I do not believe in any "truth", being it Buddhist or not.
This does not mean disagreement, means that it is just words, and I am not interested in words, even if attibuted to Muhammad, Buddha, Visnu, or anybody else


Matteo1972 wrote:How would you know that the teachings are valuable if there is no arhant, and therefore not the smallest shred of evidence that someone got Enlightened ever?


Matteo1972 wrote:In which way is the Dhamma more "evidence" than the Bible or the Koran?
And on which grounds is the Dhamma sublime if you do not even know that it leads to Englithenment (other than blind faith)


Matteo1972 wrote:Well.. unless you are veeery old, I do not think you met the Buddha personally. :)
Infact, I do not think anybody can claim evidence that he actually lived.


Matteo1972 wrote:As for the Dhamma, unless it can be assumed that it can actually bring people to Enlightenment, what would be the use?


Matteo1972 wrote:I do not want to make any proselitism here, but Catholic priests claim the same: if you have in God you can bear your burden better.
I think the same would be true for faith in Allah, or any other God probably


I show the quotes above to show a general theme running through all of your posts. I have them quoted separately, all real quotes from you and they are not pieced together in any way to change any meanings; just to show the general theme in your posts.

Numerous posters have adequately responded to your questions and it is quite obvious that no answer no matter how logical and rational the answer, it will not satisfy you. It is apparent that you have no interest in pursuing Buddhism, in my opinion and you are just here to try and debunk it, no matter how miserably you have failed. You refuse to give it a try; what more needs to be said? You are going in circles making the same claims about how Buddhism is no better than blah, blah, how there is no proof that there are any arahants, that Buddha existed, etc., etc. You never responded to my question / response of giving it a try and see if there is less suffering as you progress. It seems you already have your mind made up.

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Re: Faith-based against evidence-based

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:16 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:It is apparent that you have no interest in pursuing Buddhism, in my opinion and you are just here to try and debunk it

Respectfully, I disagree. I'm familiar with the worry of "I don't want to invest time and energy into something if I can't be sure it's going to bear fruit" and I think that's what's going on here. I also think he is so entrenched in his ideas of how to properly engage a spiritual pursuit that he's not even hearing what anyone here is saying. There has sadly been no meaningful dialog in this whole thread, no willingness to listen or engage, despite numerous people willing to give him their time and attention. I'm reminded of the Zen story about the overflowing teacup.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.


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