Are Theravadins Simpler ?

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby SamBodhi » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:19 am

kmath wrote:...If the monk insists on less luxurious gifts, where's the renunciation in that? It's just attachment to views all over again.

I think that this is a very good point that is worth great consideration in this topic.


with Metta,
SamBodhi
"An inward-staying
unentangled knowing,
All outward-going knowing
cast aside."
--Upasika Kee Nanayon
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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:27 am

Indrajala wrote:
Kusala wrote:Ajahn Brahm and the few monks who strictly adhere to Vinaya is the reason why the Dhamma is timeless.


Not really. Ajahn Brahm is popular because he is a charismatic teacher with a large youtube following, not because he strictly adheres to the Vinaya.


It's a necessary condition but, of course, not suficient.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby Sanjay PS » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:53 am

chownah wrote:Arijitmitter,
I'm glad that you are expressing your views here. I both agree and disagree with you. Frankly I don't really much care what monks do. I think it is much more valuable to know what the Noble Ones do. Not all monks are Noble Ones and not all Noble Ones are monks. The Buddha never claimed to be of any lineage of monks but he did claim to be of the lineage of Noble Ones.

From Accesstoinsight:
AN 4.28 PTS: A ii 27
Ariya-vamsa Sutta: The Discourse on the Traditions of the Noble Ones
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1996
These four traditions of the Noble Ones — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — are not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and are unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives and brahmans. Which four?

There is the case where a monk is content with any old robe cloth at all. He speaks in praise of being content with any old robe cloth at all. He does not, for the sake of robe cloth, do anything unseemly or inappropriate. Not getting cloth, he is not agitated. Getting cloth, he uses it not tied to it, uninfatuated, guiltless, seeing the drawbacks (of attachment to it), and discerning the escape from them. He does not, on account of his contentment with any old robe cloth at all, exalt himself or disparage others. In this he is skillful, energetic, alert, and mindful. This, monks, is said to be a monk standing firm in the ancient, original traditions of the Noble Ones.

Furthermore, the monk is content with any old almsfood at all. He speaks in praise of being content with any old almsfood at all. He does not, for the sake of almsfood, do anything unseemly or inappropriate. Not getting almsfood, he is not agitated. Getting almsfood, he uses it not tied to it, uninfatuated, guiltless, seeing the drawbacks (of attachment to it), and discerning the escape from them. He does not, on account of his contentment with any old almsfood at all, exalt himself or disparage others. In this he is skillful, energetic, alert, and mindful. This, monks, is said to be a monk standing firm in the ancient, original traditions of the Noble Ones.

Furthermore, the monk is content with any old lodging at all. He speaks in praise of being content with any old lodging at all. He does not, for the sake of lodging, do anything unseemly or inappropriate. Not getting lodging, he is not agitated. Getting lodging, he uses it not tied to it, uninfatuated, guiltless, seeing the drawbacks (of attachment to it), and discerning the escape from them. He does not, on account of his contentment with any old lodging at all, exalt himself or disparage others. In this he is skillful, energetic, alert, and mindful. This, monks, is said to be a monk standing firm in the ancient, original traditions of the Noble Ones.

Furthermore, the monk finds pleasure and delight in developing (skillful mental qualities), finds pleasure and delight in abandoning (unskillful mental qualities). He does not, on account of his pleasure and delight in developing and abandoning, exalt himself or disparage others. In this he is skillful, energetic, alert, and mindful. This, monks, is said to be a monk standing firm in the ancient, original traditions of the Noble Ones.

These are the four traditions of the Noble Ones — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — which are not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and are unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives and brahmans.

And furthermore, a monk endowed with these four traditions of the Noble Ones, if he lives in the east, conquers displeasure and is not conquered by displeasure. If he lives in the west... the north... the south, he conquers displeasure and is not conquered by displeasure. Why is that? Because the wise one endures both pleasure and displeasure.

This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, he said further:


Displeasure does not conquer the enlightened one.
Displeasure does not suppress him.
He conquers displeasure
because he endures it.

Having cast away all deeds:
who could obstruct him?
Like an ornament of finest gold:
Who is fit to find fault with him?
Even the Devas praise him,
even by Brahma is he praised.

For this discussion I might plagiarize and slightly alter, "He does not, on account of his contentment with any old airline seat at all, exalt himself or disparage others. In this he is skillful, energetic, alert, and mindful. This, monks, is said to be a monk standing firm in the ancient, original traditions of the Noble Ones."
chownah


Very nice Chownah . Thanks

Reading the Four Traditions of the Noble Ones is very nourishing and inspiring, to be brought down in our daily living, in both letter and spirit .

Thanks once again.

sanjay
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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby Feathers » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:53 am

Indrajala wrote:
Kusala wrote:Ajahn Brahm and the few monks who strictly adhere to Vinaya is the reason why the Dhamma is timeless.


Not really. Ajahn Brahm is popular because he is a charismatic teacher with a large youtube following, not because he strictly adheres to the Vinaya.


I can't speak for his audience in general, but for me personally, both are important. Of course I enjoy his talks, but I have listened to other good talks by other good teachers (before I settled on a more-or-less Theravada way) and for me knowing that Ajahn Brahm adheres strictly to the rules and really maintains a very high discipline massively enhances my trust in him and my ability to put some faith in the dhamma he teaches.
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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby Anagarika » Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:08 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Kusala wrote:Ajahn Brahm and the few monks who strictly adhere to Vinaya is the reason why the Dhamma is timeless.


Not really. Ajahn Brahm is popular because he is a charismatic teacher with a large youtube following, not because he strictly adheres to the Vinaya.


I think he's popular for both of the above reasons. Were he simply charismatic with a large youtube following, he might be just another teacher building a brand for himself for his/her own ego and bank account. Western Mahayana has seen plenty of examples of this. The fact that behind the smile, the charisma and the sometimes corny jokes there is a serious Sutta and Vinaya scholar, and a devout Vinaya monk, makes all the difference in the world.
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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby Buliwo » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:01 pm

Very interesting thread, just spent my morning lecture reading through it slowly.

As an outsider, I agree with a former poster that says if we don't know the full story we shouldn't be so quick to criticise. However, there would have been nothing to stop the monks swapping seats with the elderly, the very tall or anyone else who has issues with economy seats. Not sure if this allowed by airline rules however. :)
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