Are Theravadins Simpler ?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

It's not about discipline, it's about your desire to find truth.

Which can be done as a lay person, or as a monastic... I don't see the problem.

Personally, I think the Vinaya is supportive of that endeavour.

Again, no one is making anyone become a bhikkhu, and there are other organisational models within other traditions already.

Metta,
Retro.

[DNS]

Not so actually. That's another latinisation.
The lad's name is Y'shua.

That is how you pronounce it, but this is how you spell it:

ישוע

Speaking of Jesus, I mean Y'shua, he is said to have spoken out against the domain of the priestly class, which was basically a caste system. The priests of ancient Israel were all from the Levi tribe. The Buddha, hundreds of years earlier also spoke out against the brahmin caste system and allowed access to the monastic life, regardless of your birth. This was a big break from the tradition of the Vedas / caste system. And the Buddha allowed and praised lay followers who were well advanced in the Dhamma and some of whom who even taught Dhamma, including Citta and Anathapindika.

[Dan74]

... and in reading those texts, it all seemed perfectly reasonable and appropriate to the modern day. Much like reading the Suttas, you get the "flavour" of the Vinaya after while, and as mentioned above, the Four Great Standards can be applied to air transport, internet etc. and other goods and services that were non-existent back in the day.

Otherwise, if someone doesn't want to be subject to the discipline, why become a bhikkhu? Maybe it's just me who is simpler.

Metta,
Retro.

Really? What about rules like Pacittiya 56 which forbids a monk from lighting a fire unless he is sick? Would you not use a gas heater in Canada in the middle of winter? Many other rules are similarly incidental.

I found the following passage from the thrice-damned Dhammika's Broken Buddha quite to the point:

I once shared a room with a young Australian monk who was very strict about Vinaya. One day I came back to the room and noticed that he was more morose than usual. ‘What’s wrong?’ I asked. ‘I have been impure for a whole year without confessing it’ he said. ‘Which rule have you broken?’ I asked. ‘Nissaggiya Pacittiya 18,’ he replied, the rule against touching gold or silver, i.e. money. His confession surprised me because I knew that he was extremely strict about this particular rule. ‘But I’ve never seen you break that rule.’ I said. He hung his head and said, ‘Iv been doing it ever since Iv been a monk.’ ‘How? When?’ I asked. He opened his mouth and pointed to a gold filling on one of his back teeth which he had apparently only just remembered. One rule states that a monk should not use Sangha property without putting a cover on it. This seems like a sensible rule but combine it with that obsessive tendency common to Theravadins and it can become a major problem. I knew a monk, again an Australian, who was con- stantly agonizing over this rule. He was a very restless sleeper and in the mornings he would inevitably wake up finding that his sheet had come loose during the night and his body was touching the bed, that is, touching Sangha property. Even when he woke up with no part touching the bed he would worry that he might have done so during the night. One morning he was so overwrought that he was literally on the verge of committing suicide and had I or another monk not been with him he may well have done so. As a brief aside, I have noticed two other things about Vinaya fundamentalists. The first is that they seem to have a higher rate of disrobing than the more ‘lax’ monks. Secondly, and this should come as no surprise to anyone familiar with psychology, when they do disrobe they often go wild and not uncommonly even give up Buddhism altogether. It is a case of first one extreme and then the other. The two monks mentioned above both soon disrobed, one turned against Buddhism with a vehemence and the other gradually drifted out of it.

[DNS]

Really? What about rules like Pacittiya 56 which forbids a monk from lighting a fire unless he is sick? Would you not use a gas heater in Canada in the middle of winter? Many other rules are similarly incidental.

Well if you don't light a gas heater in the Yukon I am sure you would get very sick. I imagine prevention (of sickness) is fine.

Regarding the monk upset about his gold filling, that is just fanaticism. That would be following the letter and disregarding the spirit.

[alan]

Throw away the rules. Then make your own.

[dagon]

Throw away the rules. Then make your own.

There is a simpler solution - follow what rules you want but don't call yourselves Theravada Buddhist.

I have never noticed where the Buddha taught popularity - i read/heard that he was teaching the truth. Popularity and truth often do not go together.

metta
paul

[cooran]

Hello Alan, all,

Maybe that is what this prophetic Sutta is talking about?

False Dhamma
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

With metta and karuna,
Chris

[Dan74]

Really? What about rules like Pacittiya 56 which forbids a monk from lighting a fire unless he is sick? Would you not use a gas heater in Canada in the middle of winter? Many other rules are similarly incidental.

Well if you don't light a gas heater in the Yukon I am sure you would get very sick. I imagine prevention (of sickness) is fine.

Regarding the monk upset about his gold filling, that is just fanaticism. That would be following the letter and disregarding the spirit.

"Following the letter and disregarding the spirit" is precisely the problem, it seems. Though I also appreciate that some bikkhus do it out of respect for the Buddha and the Sangha that came before them.

[Anagarika]

Greetings,

If some monks want to do it then who will stop them?

What, follow the Vinaya? Well, when I had serious ordination intent in late 2012 I had every intention of following the Vinaya to the best of my ability, which included studying the following texts...

The Buddhist Monastic Code I: The Patimokkha Training Rules Translated and Explained by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... intro.html

The Buddhist Monastic Code II: The Khandhaka Rules Translated and Explained by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... intro.html

As for the Vinaya, I'm not too excited about that. Those rules were made in a different environment, some of which--but not all, of course, no longer apply.

... and in reading those texts, it all seemed perfectly reasonable and appropriate to the modern day. Much like reading the Suttas, you get the "flavour" of the Vinaya after while, and as mentioned above, the Four Great Standards can be applied to air transport, internet etc. and other goods and services that were non-existent back in the day.

Otherwise, if someone doesn't want to be subject to the discipline, why become a bhikkhu? Maybe it's just me who is simpler.

Metta,
Retro.

I'm just curious, Retro, if you don't mind my asking. Are you on a path toward ordination still? You bring so much insight to this forum and always have a valuable comment, and it occurs to me you'd be a terrific Bhikkhu. You'd also be terrific at anything you do, but just thought I'd ask.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

I'm just curious, Retro, if you don't mind my asking. Are you on a path toward ordination still? You bring so much insight to this forum and always have a valuable comment, and it occurs to me you'd be a terrific Bhikkhu. You'd also be terrific at anything you do, but just thought I'd ask.

Thanks BuddhaSoup.

Not for another decade at least... and then, who knows?

Metta,
Retro.

[Anagarika]

Greetings,

I'm just curious, Retro, if you don't mind my asking. Are you on a path toward ordination still? You bring so much insight to this forum and always have a valuable comment, and it occurs to me you'd be a terrific Bhikkhu. You'd also be terrific at anything you do, but just thought I'd ask.

Thanks BuddhaSoup.

Not for another decade at least... and then, who knows?

Metta,
Retro.

Thanks, kalayana mitta Retro...I'm on the 5 year plan myself.....

M

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Thanks, kalayana mitta Retro...I'm on the 5 year plan myself.....

It's certainly a worthwhile ambition.

For me it depends on my circumstances in a decade's time (when I'll be 45 or so) - whether circumstances permit, and whether I think it's the best mode of living for me at that point in time. As I see it, there's no benefit in wishing it to be so right now, so I just get on with it, making the most of every day rather than wishing it away.

Metta,
Retro.

[Anagarika]

Greetings,

Thanks, kalayana mitta Retro...I'm on the 5 year plan myself.....

It's certainly a worthwhile ambition.

For me it depends on my circumstances in a decade's time (when I'll be 45 or so) - whether circumstances permit, and whether I think it's the best mode of living for me at that point in time. As I see it, there's no benefit in wishing it to be so right now, so I just get on with it, making the most of every day rather than wishing it away.

Metta,
Retro.

Ahh, you're a young man with a lot of mileage still on the tread. I'm a fair bit older, will be able to be a homeleaver to a great extent, and do wish to dig deeper into the Dhamma in the next years and progress toward ordination. As it is said, if wishes were wings, frogs could fly. So I'll keep your good advice in mind and just stay on the path and see where life takes me. Metta and wellbeing to you, Retro.

[arijitmitter]

To make my position clear (since I am half way out of Theravada and part of Buddhism with no lineage - just a simple Buddhist urban monk who follows 8 precepts dutifully)

I cannot, shall not, will not accept under any circumstances that a Buddhist monk travels in business class despite attempts by so many to put it under Dana. It is counter intuitive to what we understand. Monks do not have to walk and swim from Thailand to Bodh Gaya. They can travel economy class. That is all I said.

Having said this I have great respect for Ajahns Brahm, Sona, Sumedho, Bhikkhu Bodhi and others great teachers and Venerables from West. I will make special mention of Venerable Yuttadhammo since his YouTube videos were instrumental in inspiring me as a newbie.

Basically I am a believer in Western Theravada. What I do not believe in is Thai Buddhism (or large parts of it). Sitting on a golden throne and teaching Buddhism as the video in an earlier page (page 1) shows. Compare it to my reply showing an austere Ajahn Sona. Now tell me who is the real Buddhist there ? That is all that I said.

Reading Bhikkhu Samahita's The Broken Buddha has only confirmed it http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-b ... dhanew.pdf

However every one or two months I will be back to politely say Hi to everyone.

Arijit

edit: Venerable Dhammika wrote The Broken Buddha. Typo is regretted.

[DNS]

just a simple Buddhist urban monk who follows 8 precepts dutifully)

Are you an ordained monk? If so, shouldn't it be 227 precepts?

Correction: It was Ven. Dhammika who wrote Broken Buddha.