Are Theravadins Simpler ?

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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby Sanjay PS » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:16 am

arijitmitter wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote:i think it is entirely uncalled for us laity to evaluate or contemplate a" perceived " or factual short coming of those who have donned the robe . There is the proper Sangha in place to deal and manage any conducts that spills over the Vinaya . Whenever we pay our deep respects to the members of Sangha it is the qualities of the Sangha to which we stand inspired , devoid of the individuals inclination . And i am sure , a natural feeling of gratitude emanates with reverence making us want to provide the best .


Can you explain this by your concept of self correcting Sangha ?

http://news.yahoo.com/scandal-jet-setti ... 38071.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOaLYryhivQ

These monks did not buy their ipod and sunglasses and expensive luggage the day the video was shot. It must have been on going.

How is this different than the German Bishop who spent $ 43 million to renovate his home and $ 15000 on a bathtub ?

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-banishes-ger ... 54932.html


My dear friend Arijit ,

We keep looking outside and outside ...........and the inside gets that much more poorer and poorer............

Look within yourself; give it time and patience , without defining any limits to these two coordinates . Remember , without faith ( entirely different from the crutches of blind faith ) its like being in a race , having eyes and brains , but having no legs to actually strive ahead. As the saying goes in the Pali language " Kalam Agmaya " time has no meaning, leave time alone ...

i am sure you will make become a stellar example of the Sangha, having abandoned and discarded subtle and refined conceit both from its weeds and its roots .

Tumhare arijit punnaiye me , bhag sabhee ka ho, aur hum sabh apne punnaiye ka vitran karte hai .( May we also partake in your accumulated merits , and may we also share our merits with you ) .

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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby arijitmitter » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:38 am

Thank you Sanjay. Since I do not react well to authority, I am not a suitable disciple for any form of formal Buddhism except for being a free thinker who follows Buddha.

Being unorthodox, I cannot summon suitable calmness when reacting to a centuries old hierarchical structure if I think or suspect a flaw in it (regardless if the flaw is imaginary).

It is best I do not interact in this Forum for some time.

:anjali: Arijit
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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby daverupa » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:46 am

PeterB wrote:That's another latinisation.
The lad's name is Y'shua. :focus:


:clap:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby chownah » Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:27 am

Sanjay PS wrote: As the saying goes in the Pali language " Kalam Agmaya " time has no meaning, leave time alone......
sanjay

Sanjay PS,
The saying you present above seems to be a Pali colloquialism. I'm very interested in where it comes from as the existence of colloquialisms in Pali interest me very much.......do you have the reference?
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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby Sanjay PS » Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:24 pm

chownah wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote: As the saying goes in the Pali language " Kalam Agmaya " time has no meaning, leave time alone......
sanjay

Sanjay PS,
The saying you present above seems to be a Pali colloquialism. I'm very interested in where it comes from as the existence of colloquialisms in Pali interest me very much.......do you have the reference?
chownah


Chownah ,

While doing a long course in Dhamma Tapovan ( at a place called Igatpuri in India , where 20 to 90 day courses are regularly held, and other parts of the world, http://www.dhamma.org ) these inspirational words give further zeal to an ardent meditator . Some of them apart from that what was in context are :

- aukit chako ( at all times keep your eyes down and the mind inwards )

- bhat mathaniyo ( eat in moderation )

Dhamma is so wonderful ,timeless , bearing fruits here and now, an unrestrained joy, especially when shared .

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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby chownah » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:47 pm

Sanjay PS wrote:
chownah wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote: As the saying goes in the Pali language " Kalam Agmaya " time has no meaning, leave time alone......
sanjay

Sanjay PS,
The saying you present above seems to be a Pali colloquialism. I'm very interested in where it comes from as the existence of colloquialisms in Pali interest me very much.......do you have the reference?
chownah


Chownah ,

While doing a long course in Dhamma Tapovan ( at a place called Igatpuri in India , where 20 to 90 day courses are regularly held, and other parts of the world, http://www.dhamma.org ) these inspirational words give further zeal to an ardent meditator . Some of them apart from that what was in context are :

- aukit chako ( at all times keep your eyes down and the mind inwards )

- bhat mathaniyo ( eat in moderation )

Dhamma is so wonderful ,timeless , bearing fruits here and now, an unrestrained joy, especially when shared .

sanjay

Sunjay PS,
I have not been able to find any evidence that any of these words (kalam agmaya, aukit chako, bhat mathaniyo) are from the Pali language at all. I'm hoping that you or some other Pali scholar can help me find out about them.
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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby Sanjay PS » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:36 pm

Sunjay PS,
I have not been able to find any evidence that any of these words (kalam agmaya, aukit chako, bhat mathaniyo) are from the Pali language at all. I'm hoping that you or some other Pali scholar can help me find out about them.
chownah


My friend ,

i am zero in Pali, hence , can not help you on this . Nor did any of my post say that this is Pali ( though i think it is ) . You can alternatively also do a few 10 day courses , graduating on to the longer courses , and hear these inspirational words for yourself . These words are mentioned by Goenkaji in the longer courses , whom i think had a good grasp on the Pali language ( may be an understatement ) , and in very good probability was very close to the Buddha , in some life or the other .

Do well and be well .

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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby chownah » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:06 am

Sanjay PS wrote:
Sunjay PS,
I have not been able to find any evidence that any of these words (kalam agmaya, aukit chako, bhat mathaniyo) are from the Pali language at all. I'm hoping that you or some other Pali scholar can help me find out about them.
chownah


My friend ,

i am zero in Pali, hence , can not help you on this . Nor did any of my post say that this is Pali ( though i think it is ) . You can alternatively also do a few 10 day courses , graduating on to the longer courses , and hear these inspirational words for yourself . These words are mentioned by Goenkaji in the longer courses , whom i think had a good grasp on the Pali language ( may be an understatement ) , and in very good probability was very close to the Buddha , in some life or the other.

Do well and be well .

sanjay

Sanjay PS,
Thanks for the reply. Actually you did say that Kalam agmaya was a Pali expression......but I understand now that you think that it is Pali. I have looked around and have found no evidence that it, or the other expressions you mentioned, are Pali. I would not want people's ideas about the scriptures to be tainted by false attributation of sayings etc. To say that something is a Pali saying (if it is not) might at a minimum confuse someone if not outright mislead them......I think this idea of preserving the purity of the Teachings is part of showing respect for the Triple Gem.

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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby Sanjay PS » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:26 am

chownah wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote:
Sunjay PS,
I have not been able to find any evidence that any of these words (kalam agmaya, aukit chako, bhat mathaniyo) are from the Pali language at all. I'm hoping that you or some other Pali scholar can help me find out about them.
chownah


My friend ,

i am zero in Pali, hence , can not help you on this . Nor did any of my post say that this is Pali ( though i think it is ) . You can alternatively also do a few 10 day courses , graduating on to the longer courses , and hear these inspirational words for yourself . These words are mentioned by Goenkaji in the longer courses , whom i think had a good grasp on the Pali language ( may be an understatement ) , and in very good probability was very close to the Buddha , in some life or the other.

Do well and be well .

sanjay

Sanjay PS,
Thanks for the reply. Actually you did say that Kalam agmaya was a Pali expression......but I understand now that you think that it is Pali. I have looked around and have found no evidence that it, or the other expressions you mentioned, are Pali. I would not want people's ideas about the scriptures to be tainted by false attributation of sayings etc. To say that something is a Pali saying (if it is not) might at a minimum confuse someone if not outright mislead them......I think this idea of preserving the purity of the Teachings is part of showing respect for the Triple Gem.

chownah



Will check on the veracity of this Chownah , and to the language to which these words belong , if it is not Pali .

The correction or affirmation will be done accordingly .

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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:41 am

okkhittacakkhu antaraghare gamissāmīti sikkhā karaṇīyā”ti.

I shall walk among the houses with eyes downcast — this is a training to be done.
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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby Sanjay PS » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:06 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
okkhittacakkhu antaraghare gamissāmīti sikkhā karaṇīyā”ti.

I shall walk among the houses with eyes downcast — this is a training to be done.


Thank you Bhante .

Please forgive me for the spelling mistakes , since i have never studied Pali , and have only come across the spoken uttering of these inspiring exhortations during longer retreats . It is a great motivation not be bothered by with the hurry of ones progress . Its just knowing things in different ways that gets a deep contentment of dipping within and the fledgeling steps taken on the path of knowledge .

i remain in inspiration and dedication.

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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby chownah » Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:09 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
okkhittacakkhu antaraghare gamissāmīti sikkhā karaṇīyā”ti.

I shall walk among the houses with eyes downcast — this is a training to be done.

Bhikkhu Pesala,
Thank you so much for the reply and the Pali which corresponds with one of Sanjay PS's Pali colloquialisms. Having looked on line it seems that okkhittacakkhu means either "downcast eyes" or "with downcast eyes". Is this correct? And the colloquial meaning for this would seem to be to restrain the senses. Is this more or less correct?

Thanks again for your reply and if you happen to come across the Pali corresponding with the other two sayings please let us know.

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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby alan » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:18 am

arijitmitter is speaking sense.
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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby alan » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:29 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
alan wrote:What an odd concept. It's OK to accept needless gifts and live in luxury, so long as you also follow ridiculous rules?

There is a big problem here. Monks can easily get out of touch with reality. I suggest we throw away the old rulebook, and come up with a new way of understanding how to live and teach. No wonder Buddhism isn't thriving-we're stuck in old ways of thinking, particularly about monks.


[url][/url]Realy? Do you realise that a monastic movement in that direction would inevitably cause a schism?



Ok, then, let's have a schism. I'm all for it.
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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby kindergarden » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:34 am

Real monks would have swam and walked :)
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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:45 am

Greetings,

alan wrote:arijitmitter is speaking sense.

No one is making arijitmitter become a bhikkhu, nor contribute towards the maintenance of the Sangha. If he'd rather restrict his Triple Gem reverence to the Noble (Ariyan) Sangha instead of the community of monastics, then he can do that. There is no issue there.

However, taking a shot at the Vinaya itself, is to take aim at the Buddha's own teachings and guidelines for the Sangha. If all monastics followed the Vinaya in letter and in spirit (the spirit being best defined by the Four Great Standards IMO) then many of the criticisms made in this topic would be nullified on the spot.

There are already other schools of Buddhism that have taken it upon themselves to adopt alternative Vinayas and structures... personally, they don't look altogether successful to me. Mahayana and Vajrayana ones are generally subordinated by "skilful means" (i.e. the Vinaya is only regarded as provisional) and corrupted by the practice of guru reverence, whereas the Zen priest model seems diabolical if the frequent and numerous scandals are anything to go by, and the Triratna (former FWBO) model looks like a glorified and subsidised laity.

I'm wary of any changes being made based on modern values, which become old all too quickly and happen to contain their own inherent value judgements that are invariably dismissive of (and regularly at odds with) the Buddha's own wisdom and insight and how he applied that to the establishment and maintenance of the monastic community.

So whilst he may be "speaking sense", speaking as someone with great respect for the Doctrine and the Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) it's hard to get too excited about what he's saying. Personally, I like that there is at least one order that strives to maintain the discipline of The Elders... there's plenty of alternatives already for those who are not like-minded.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby chownah » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:59 am

If some monks want to do it then who will stop them?
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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby alan » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:07 am

His statements in regard this post made sense, but they were ignored.
As for the Vinaya, I'm not too excited about that. Those rules were made in a different environment, some of which--but not all, of course, no longer apply.
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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:42 am

Greetings,

chownah wrote:If some monks want to do it then who will stop them?

What, follow the Vinaya? Well, when I had serious ordination intent in late 2012 I had every intention of following the Vinaya to the best of my ability, which included studying the following texts...

The Buddhist Monastic Code I: The Patimokkha Training Rules Translated and Explained by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... intro.html

The Buddhist Monastic Code II: The Khandhaka Rules Translated and Explained by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... intro.html

alan wrote:As for the Vinaya, I'm not too excited about that. Those rules were made in a different environment, some of which--but not all, of course, no longer apply.

... and in reading those texts, it all seemed perfectly reasonable and appropriate to the modern day. Much like reading the Suttas, you get the "flavour" of the Vinaya after while, and as mentioned above, the Four Great Standards can be applied to air transport, internet etc. and other goods and services that were non-existent back in the day.

Otherwise, if someone doesn't want to be subject to the discipline, why become a bhikkhu? Maybe it's just me who is simpler. :tongue:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Are Theravadins Simpler ?

Postby alan » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:50 am

It's not about discipline, it's about your desire to find truth.
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